Lapping a lapping stone - ceramic tile?

I am trying to get my Norton Flattening stone flat, as last night I ended up with a slightly uneven lap on my Norton 1k.

I picked up a ceramic tile and I was thinking about giving the flattening stone a go on that with a low grit paper like a 220. Would that work? Is the ceramic tile going to get it flat enough? The tile sure seems flat, but you can't really tell by eye, I suppose.

Has anyone tried this? My guru is reluctant, as he hasn't heard of anyone doing this, so I figured I'd ask opinions.

How do you know your flattening stone is not flat? Did you use figure 8 strokes to lap the 1K?

I'd love to know the solution to this as well...My Norton flattening stone has not been flat for a long while. I just gave up on it and picked up a D8C and have been using that. I hate to have the lapping stone just sitting around collecting dust though :P

Instructions which came with mine state:

"With continue use, the flattening stone will lose its flatness. Use a coarse 220 grit waterproof sandpaper or diamond sharpening stone to reflatten."

-Mark

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Originally Posted by ace

How do you know your flattening stone is not flat? Did you use figure 8 strokes to lap the 1K?

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I used quite a few different strokes to lap the 1k. Circles, figure 8, up and downs, but mainly the 8 and the circles. I put a pencil grid on it and at the end, I have one corner where the pencil mark is still there and you can also see that it is a rougher area, not smooth like the rest of the stone which has been smooth by almost an hour of lapping. Maybe my technique was off on lapping, but it looks like that corner wasn't getting much action. I was advised to eliminate all possibilities, one of which is lapping the flattening stone.

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Originally Posted by avatar1999

I'd love to know the solution to this as well...My Norton flattening stone has not been flat for a long while. I just gave up on it and picked up a D8C and have been using that. I hate to have the lapping stone just sitting around collecting dust though :P

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I am tempted to pick up a DMT, too.

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Originally Posted by markdfhr

Instructions which came with mine state:

"With continue use, the flattening stone will lose its flatness. Use a coarse 220 grit waterproof sandpaper or diamond sharpening stone to reflatten."

-Mark

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Yep. I just want to know what surface to put the 220 grit on in order to ensure flatness.

Jack,
My 4k still has a low corner (4 months of use)
Unless you got your stone used I would assume the fattener is flat, and over time with frequent flattening it (your hone) will become totally level. Your hone is most likely flat enough for use after an hour.
Ps, when I got home on saturday I ordered the htc 3d like yours for my wife, very impressed with it!
Eric

Thanks Eric. :D

And yeah, the phone is a lot of fun!

jdto,

I'm a noob, but I've also acquired the Norton stone set. No personal experience flattening the flattener, but I've heard guys say that you should get a slab of marble or glass, spray it down with water and adhere the 220 grit paper to it. Wet the grit side of the paper, and rub the stone on it to flatten. See an example here: Sharpening stones: How to flatten them - YouTube

I haven't tried it, but it sounds reasonable to me. YouTube has a lot of good honing resources and hints. SRP's gssixgun has some terrific honing tips on video posted. The vids I studied most before taking a crack at honing were found on ToxikWaste's channel: ToxIkWaste's Channel - YouTube

These videos were enough to help me achieve a basic level of competency out of the gate.

Please let us know how it works out and what recommendations you have for the rest of us. Cheers!

I used a wet sheet of 220 wet/dry sandpaper and used my counter top. I checked often with a straight edge (metal ruler), checking all axis. It didn't take to long

I did this with an antique Franz Swaty stone this afternoon. Ebay "Mint condition" meant loads of steel embedded at both ends of the stone. I used a sheet of glass out of an 8-1/2 x 11 document frame (picture frame), laid that on a wet corian countertop, wet both sides of half a sheet of 400 grit silicon carbide paper (I didn't think I could use coarser grit) and, changing the orientation across the glass from time to time to more or less ensure I'd average out to a flatter surface, got what I think is a flatter, and much newer looking stone ready to try my hand at honing.

So maybe I should just pick up a piece of glass, rather than using the ceramic tile? The key here is, I'm going to lap it, just to put my mind at ease, but on what surface?

My Dad was a tool and die maker most of his adult life. In an age where CAD-CAM and EDM machining was just coming into vogue in the late 80's and early 90's he was still much sought after for techniques he'd perfected over decades of sheer skull-sweat and improvisation.

He had this lump of granite about 2 ft square and maybe 8 inches thick he kept at his bench for setting up projects and I remember him handing me a surface dial indicator to run over the surface of that stone. From end to end, any direction, it varied in height by a few thousandths of an inch or less. Big "wow" factor there. He said the stone was his most expensive piece of equipment.

So how flat is flat?

Years later I took glider piloting lessons from a UH physicist in Honolulu, optics guy name of "Buzz" (who worked on the problem of "what happened to Hubble's mirrors") who explained to me that the surface of the mirror on the Hubble space telescope was so finely ground and polished, that if you were to expand it to the size of the USA, coast to coast, it wouldn't vary in height by more than an inch. (kind of like Nebraska is now if you've ever driven it).

I don't' think we need precision on either scale to hone razors. At least I say that now. I'm sure flatter is better, but I think a thick enough piece of glass (or ceramic tile) will work fine. Seemed to work okay for me today, I'll test it out soon enough.

Norm

Dammit, I chipped the 1k side of my Norton :(. I dinged it against the handle of my espresso machine as I finished rinsing it. Piss me off.

I guess it probably won't affect honing, but still annoying!

Anyway, to update, I lapped the 1k on 400 grit paper on the ceramic tile and it came out quite smooth (apart from the chip). I also hit the 4k Norton on the 400 Grit for a while, after giving it a good working-over with the flattening stone. The 400 grit sandpaper worked faster than the 220-grit flattening stone. The 4k side of my hone looks like it still needs more lapping, as it has areas that aren't smooth. I've been told I need to lap a good 1/8" from both the 4k and the 8k, so I think I have quite a bit more to go.

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Originally Posted by jdto

Anyway, to update, I lapped the 1k on 400 grit paper on the ceramic tile and it came out quite smooth (apart from the chip). I also hit the 4k Norton on the 400 Grit for a while, after giving it a good working-over with the flattening stone. The 400 grit sandpaper worked faster than the 220-grit flattening stone. The 4k side of my hone looks like it still needs more lapping, as it has areas that aren't smooth. I've been told I need to lap a good 1/8" from both the 4k and the 8k, so I think I have quite a bit more to go.

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Especially the 4k (at least mine)

Make a pencil grid on the surface to be flattened, when it's all gone your hone is flat.

Ceramic tile isn't flat enough.

Granite tile, or marble tile, is much flatter. I got a piece of granite tile at Home Depot for about $10, and it seems to work OK.

Charles

Ok, thanks for that. I guess I'll try to swing by Home Depot, then.

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Originally Posted by cpcohen1945

Ceramic tile isn't flat enough.

Granite tile, or marble tile, is much flatter. I got a piece of granite tile at Home Depot for about $10, and it seems to work OK.

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I agree. Ceramic tile can have lots of variance, including a domed center.

Years ago, I found a piece of glass next to a trash bin. It looked to be a wall shelf or part of a table top. It's flat and about a 3/8" thick. It now sits in my workshop for lapping and other uses.

The grid method mentioned above is a easily and true way to find out the flatness of the stone. The pencil lead won't harm it.

Just make sure the tile doesn't have texture. I have a 16" x 16" tile of faux marble that has a flat, smooth surface that does quite well.

Instead of 220, pick up some drywall screen to flatten your flattening stone. It won't load up like wet/dry will.

Come to think about it, you might want to use the tile and 220 grit to flatten all your stones instead of the flattening stone.

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Originally Posted by jdto

I am trying to get my Norton Flattening stone flat, as last night I ended up with a slightly uneven lap on my Norton 1k.

I picked up a ceramic tile and I was thinking about giving the flattening stone a go on that with a low grit paper like a 220. Would that work? Is the ceramic tile going to get it flat enough? The tile sure seems flat, but you can't really tell by eye, I suppose.

Has anyone tried this? My guru is reluctant, as he hasn't heard of anyone doing this, so I figured I'd ask opinions.

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I am going to go for a marble/granite tile or a piece of glass, just to be sure. Also, if I'm going to use that stuff to flatten, what's the point of the flattening stone, then? Just for touching up before a honing session? Cleaning off the hones?

@ Johnus: I do use the grid method.

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Originally Posted by jdto

Also, if I'm going to use that stuff to flatten, what's the point of the flattening stone, then? Just for touching up before a honing session? Cleaning off the hones?

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Actually, Norton makes the prep stone for that purpose. When I had my Norton combos, I lapped on a DuoSharp, but used the prep stone to keep the surface clean.

If you have a good surface to lap on, then a flattening stone is just a matter of convenience.

Sounds good. I think that, eventually, I'll end up with the DMT, but for now the granite tile/piece of glass with sandpaper will be my solutions

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Ceramic tile isn't flat enough.

Granite tile, or marble tile, is much flatter. I got a piece of granite tile at Home Depot for about $10, and it seems to work OK.

Charles

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Not to beat a dead horse, but I can tell you my experiences.

I flattened my Norton 1K with 220 grit sandpaper on a ceramic tile left over from when they built my house. I drew the grid on the hone, and flattened until the grid was gone. THEN, without honing any razors, I got my DMT8 and flattened the same Norton 1K and the grid didn't come off evenly at all. This tells me that the ceramic tile was nowhere close to being as flat as the DMT8.

IMHO there are so many variables to properly honing a razor, that if you can eliminate one of them, you're that much more ahead of the game... My advice is to get a DMT8 and don't ever worry about whether your stones are flat or not.

Remember also that REAL hard stones such as Arkansas or Swaty's (Barber Hones) can kill a DMT. DMT's work just fine with Norton's though and natural Thurigian's and Coticules along with other softer man-made waterstones.

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Originally Posted by rodb

Remember also that REAL hard stones such as Arkansas or Swaty's (Barber Hones) can kill a DMT. DMT's work just fine with Norton's though and natural Thurigian's and Coticules along with other softer man-made waterstones.

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I have a Chinese 12k and an Ebay Thuringian inbound. So the DMT might be a good idea, I suppose.

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Originally Posted by jdto

I have a Chinese 12k and an Ebay Thuringian inbound. So the DMT might be a good idea, I suppose.

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It will work fine for those two, the C12K is pretty hard but will lap on the DMT. I made the bad mistake of using the Norton lapping stone for other stones (C12k) and wore a slight groove in the Norton and it took lots of sandpaper and work to get the NLS flat again, now it's used ONLY for the 4k/8k Norton!

Which grit DMT? The 325 or the 220?

DMT 325 is what I use/suggest.

I appreciate the input from everyone.

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Originally Posted by jdto

So maybe I should just pick up a piece of glass, rather than using the ceramic tile? The key here is, I'm going to lap it, just to put my mind at ease, but on what surface?

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go by lee Valley and pic up 90 grit lapping grit use it on the glass to flatten your Norton stone Its cheap and works.

If you're planning on lapping regularly, the norton flattening stone is not a good choice. It dishes out fairly fast. If you want to flatten it, use a tile with sandpaper on top.

Ceramic may not be perfect, but realistically, if you make a pattern '8' on top of the sandpaper, the surface flatness will be more than acceptable for the purpose of razor honing.

I just got home from Lee Valley. I got a plate glass lapping plate 8.5"x14"x1/4" as well as the DMT 4"x10" 325.

I think I should be alright for honing gear for a while :hmmm:

Thank you to all the helpful posters in this thread. Between all the good advice I got, I now have some very flat, smooth Nortons. The DMT is just amazing. It took a while to get the 8k flat and get through the roughness at the top, but now it's very smooth. I polished it up with 1k and then 1.5k on the glass lapping plate and it feels almost glass-like.

Now all I need are my razors to show up so I can practice honing. I am still waiting on about 5 :D