how do you know when to move on to the next grit

Hi all,


I'm gonna start honing very soon.
One piece of advice that comes back regularly is:
after each set of circles, strokes, or passes, constantly test/check your progress so you know when to move on to the next hone (e.g. not too early with an unset bevel or not to late with an overhoned edge).

That I understand.
In particular for being done with the bevel: you should be able to shave/pop arm air and the TNT (thumbnail test) should be "positive".

Now my problem is that after that (once on a 3k or 4k and higher), the only test I know is the TPT (thumbpad test).

So my questions are:
- what other honing tests are out there to tell you when you're done with a 4k, a 8k, a 12k...?
- if only the TPT exits, then how do you feel the difference between a 4K-TPT and a 8k-TPT...?

I hope this makes sense.
If that helps, I'm gonna use
- Naniwa SuperStone 2k, 5k, 8k, 12k
- Chinese 12k
- CrOx paste.
And I've read the most of the wiki and forum posts.


Thank you
Christophe

It's purely a matter of doing it and seeing what works best for your.

I never got anywhere with the TPT. I couldn't feel the difference, and still can't. What I found was, as the razor got sharper, I could track its progress by how well it cut arm hair above the skin. Basically, the sharper it got, the higher I could go off the skin and the more smoothly the hair was cut. Moving up from 1K (shaving arm hair) I went on 4K until it cuts with a rough pop, with some pull. Then on to 8K until the pull is gone and the hair cuts cleanly and smoothly.

The problem is, my armhair test works for me because I've honed and shaved a lot--and I know the connection between my arm hair (very fine, but very thick and long) and how the razor shaves. Since your armhair is probably different from mine, you'll have to learn that correlation for yourself.

The same thing goes for the HHT and the TPT. You have to establish for yourself the connection between a shaving edge and any test you use. There's no fast and easy, one-shoe-fits-all test because everyone's face and hair are different.

It takes time to get that connection clear in your brain.

christophe,

I look at edge/bevel with a loupe or microscope and when all the previous stones scratch pattern is removed, I move on to the next stone.

It is probably not a very elegant way of doing things, but it works consistently for me :)

Have fun !

Best regards

Russ

With that Naniwa progression, knowing when to move on is just a matter of counting strokes, IME. One the bevel is set, just do 20 circles followed by 20 X or rolling x strokes on each succcessive stone. That is the beauty of Superstones, they are very predictable. Works for me 99% of the time.

Those with years and thousands of razors of experience develop a feel for the blade on the hone that tells them when to move on. They are called honemeisters.

The rest of us are blessed to have Nanis.

BTW, do not use the Guangxi after the N12K. Chances are great you will degrade the edge, unless you have one of those one in a thousand C12Ks. Go straight to the Crox.

I really liked what JimR had to say, I grew up in restaurants so my fingers have been burned many times and feeling for sharpness doesnt work until I darn near hit bone. The way I compensate for this is the same as JimR, I also watch with great interest the water being pushed by my blade. When you start honing on the stone, no matter where in the progression, the blade will push the water in front of it until the bevel matches the stone. At this time the water will climb up the edge and onto the blade, the better the bevel is the easier, faster and farther the water travels from the edge towards the spine. also watch the surface of the stone after the edge has gone by, the better the edge , the drier the stone behind that edge.


In the end only the shave test matters.

Hone a lot and then some, I think Glen said something like that. :)
Pretty much everything that can be said is alread said here. You have to develop your personal benchmarks for how you test your edges, and as already mentioned, the Naniwas gives you nice feedback for when it's time to move on. Watch these videos, look and listen carefully:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2E9sovmb0Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gB-s6qiJx2s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZWLNvY_gXI

As for your "C12K" you have to test it, try shaving right off the Naniwa 12k without stropping, just one cheek or something for getting a feel for it, then hit the C12K and shave the other cheek to feel the difference. That should give you an idea.
I must have one of the good ones, mine certainly improves a nani 12k edge.

one thing ive heard said before many times is that if in switching to an 8k you produce a lot of swarf you are not done removing coarse scratches on the 4k left by the 1k. The 8k should produce very little swarf after the 4k.

Here's my sense of things:

I began, as many others did, by using a straightforward method. I have a set of Norton's, so I used Lynn's pyramid. Once I got that down pat, then I moved to successive honing using a 4, 8 k. Then, when I could consistently produce a really comfortable edge from the Norton 8k, I added a 12k into the mix as my finisher. I didn't use anything else until I could consistently get really good edges from those three stones. The variables are what get you, too much on one stone, to little on another, etc. At the beginning, stick with something that has been proven time and time again by others. It's the quickest method and benchmark to and for success.

If you want to figure it out all for yourself, there are things you can do. As has been mentioned, if you're embedding steel on an 8K Norton, chances are you have not properly honed on the 4k first. If you have gone as far as you can go on the 4k, then very little, possibly almost no steel will embed on the 8k side. This becomes complicated further when you add slurry, but lets for the sake of simplicity say that you're not going to be using any right now.

Secondly. Circles take a bit more muscle control and pressure control than X strokes. It may be best to start with regular X's so that you can build your muscles. It sounds like weightlifting, but it's true. You're going to build stability muscles in your forearm that you didn't know existed.

Do 20 strokes on a 4k and cut some arm hair. Then repeat. Did the feeling change when you cut arm hair again? Did it improve? Continue this until you can't discern a change in the way it feels when the razor cuts. Now, do a TPT....that's what a razor feels like when its sharp from the 4k.

Repeat this process on the 8k....strokes, cut hair, tpt. At first, you may notice no difference, but as you continue to hone more razors, your thumb may very well feel the difference between a 4k and an 8k edge. The eventual idea is that your arm hair will remain on your arm, and it will be your thumb that can guide you, because you'll have trained your thumbpad to recognize when a blade is max'd out on that particular hone. It also is beneficial to find someone in your area that may be able to help you. Seeing someone do this will help you progress in light years.

Getting good edges is about trial and error, sure. But like any new skill, it's also a matter of problem solving. It's about removing the most inconsistent variables so you can attain the best result in the shortest amount of learning time. Once you understand the concept of something, then you can begin to apply variables that lead down a different road to the same result.

Practice, Practice....and then practice again.

Good luck.

I am not a honmiester, but i have noticed different brands reacte differently..... I am working on a late 1700's blade right now and i couldn't get it to cut hair at 1k. I fanally tried a 4k and it sharpened in a few strokes... I think the shape and steel type matters also... It just takes time to learn the blade you are working with.

My take on honing is to achieve the best edge possible on the first hone in use. Once that edge is as sharp as it can be the rest of the hones are just polishing the bevel and refining the edge, which is minimal compared to setting a bevel. Be patient and use your first hone past where you think it has it's best edge. Develop tests like shaving arm hairs and see what happens the more you use the first hone. I use circles to remove metal and polish the bevel followed by normal strokes. Don't count strokes until you are at the end of the honing on that stone. Don't count circle except to keep the honing balances on each side. Each razor will require a different amount of time on the hones are you are not done on the hone until the edge is the best it can be from that hone. Good luck.

Lots of good info here! For me, if the bevel is not set, I will hit the 1k, and once the whole edge passes the TNT, I will make a couple more passes just in case my nail dulled the edge a bit.

Then I move up to a finer stone. IMO, once the bevel is set, the hard part is done, and, again, IMO, it's just polishing from there on out. All you are really doing is polishing that edge to remove the scratches produced from the previous stone. Once you have the whole edge looking the same, and the scratches aren't getting any better, move on to the next stone. Rinse and repeat as high as your system takes you. And as stated above, once you get the bevel set, the test that matters the most is the shave test. If you are happy, then that's all that matters right?

I don't think there is a way that shows you when to pass to the next step. Experience is the best way to learn this. Not only with razors, with everything that needs to be sharp. If this is your first time and the razor is expensive, try it for some knifes, and then with razors. Yes, depending on the steel, there is big difference. Vanadium or Molybdenum containing steels get much finer than plain high carbon steels. Don't rely too much to the HHT or TPT tests, the real test is the shaving.

The understanding when to move on develops with practice, and getting to know your stones.
I use magnification to tell when the razor is ready to move to the next grit. As a beginner I used to look at the bevels after every grit, but after many honed razors, I now only pay attention to the bevel setting step and the finishing step, I never look at he bevels during the intermediate steps unless there is some problem that I need to track.

The thing that one should note by reading all these posts, is that many people started out honing the same way as you are, by using all the tests they could figure out, and then using the ones that worked for each one of us... You will start to eliminate the tests that don't work for you as you progress though your honing journey, but basically you are going to have to do what the rest of us did, and figure out which ones work for you...

Until the NC meet of 09 I honestly thought that the AHT was foolproof, it was working for everyone who had tried it, but at that meet there was a guy that it didn't work on at all... I learned at that time, every test has a weakness, and every test is not universal... use them all at the beginning so you can figure out which are going to work for you the best...

Also read back through these posts and realize that the guys are using at least 3 of the 5 senses to figure the edge, haven't heard of the taste or smell test yet :) They are looking, feeling, and listening to determine when they think their edge is ready to move on...

The two things that are the hardest for new honers to learn is when to change the hone or the slurry (cutting power) and when to stop honing :rofl2: Take the time to enjoy the process it ain't a race it really is a journey...

How fun would this be if it was really easy? Not much. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Until the NC meet of 09 I honestly thought that the AHT was foolproof,

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what is the AHT ?


thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by christophe

what is the AHT ?


thanks

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Arm hair test. Trying to cut arm hairs. Some people just mow them down, others try to get the hairs to pop. I try to get the hairs to cut and drop dead on the spot. If you can stabilize the hand that is holding the razor by using a finger to keep your hand from shacking, I try to cut just one hair at a time and see how it reacts. Some people that have lots of arm hair try to cut the hairs above the skin. My arm hairs are spare so I have to live with one hair at a time.

My arms dont have hair anymore:banghead: