Honing difference - meister vs newb

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09-29-2006, 03:02 PM
izlat

Honing difference - meister vs newb

I was comparing the bevels on my razors and noticed this:

invariably, bevels from Joe Chandler, Bill Ellis, Robert Williams (the only ones I have razors from, hoping for a Lynn in the indefinite future) have WIDE bevels.

Edges I honed often shave decent, but have much narrower bevels - like half the width of the honemeisters' bevels. I use a Norton 4k/8k, followed by a Lithide, trying to avoid any pressure

I would like to hear some thoughts on that... Is a wider bevel better? How does one achieve it without more pressure?

Thank you!
Ivo
09-29-2006, 03:50 PM
Redwoood

I'm not a honemeister, but here's my opintion fwiw:

The width of the bevel is determined by its ange and the thickness of the blade where the bevel starts. The first is determined by the thickness of the spine and note that even a concave blade gets slightly thicker towards the spine.
You can apply more pressure, and while it will create the illusion of a wider bevel, it will actually miss the very edge.

So a wider bevel usually means that the spine is thinner or the blade is thicker [edited: not narrower like it said before], both of which are characteristics of used blades with hone wear. So if you buy restored blades from the masters, there's a good chance that blade has seen the hone quite a few times in the past, whereas your new or nos blades still have the original narrow bevel.
Note that a wide bevel due to a thinner spine (with a disproportionally less abraded edge) can mean that the angle of your bevel is more acute. And a more acute edge cuts better.
This is in addition to the honing abilities of the respective honers, which of course can add a lot.

Redwoood
09-29-2006, 08:43 PM
fcohio

Thanks Izlat for posting that ?
I also have noticed the the wider bevels on some of the blades.
i am anxious waiting for enlightenment:)
FredC.
09-29-2006, 08:57 PM
izlat

Quote:

Originally Posted by fcohio

i am anxious waiting for enlightenment:)
FredC.

Well, seems to me Redwood already enlightened us.

Of course, I understand that the spine thickness / the angle determines the bevel, I just had not connected it to extended use. Seems that quite a bit of spine wear shall be necessary, btw, to achieve the wide bevel

CHeers
Ivo
09-29-2006, 09:02 PM
Redwoood

Even if spine and edge wear are perfectly proportional, the blade gets slightly thicker as it becomes narrower/is honed away.
I believe this is probably the biggest factor, though incompetent honing by previous honers is quite likely, too.

Redwoood
09-30-2006, 03:19 AM
thebigspendur

I think the bottom line here is that as a general rule the bevel width does not effect the shaving ability of a razor. I have some razors with really tiny bevels and they give great shaves and I have razors with huge bevels that give equally great shaves and I have wide and narrow beveled razors that both give crummy shaves (or did when I got them). The only constant I've found is that if I get an Eboy special in a typical 6/8s or 5/8s razor and it doesn't respond to conservative honing and it has a narrow bevel I will try and enlarge that bevel abit and that is what it usually takes to get it into shape. On the other hand if I get an Eboy special that already has a wide bevel and it doesn't shave very well it is rare that conservative honing doesn't bring it back into shape.

So what am I saying here. I think that if a razor shaves well with a narrow bevel thats fine but if it doesn't then widening the bevel is usually the medicine it needs. Clear as mud?
09-30-2006, 01:41 PM
mparker762

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The only constant I've found is that if I get an Eboy special in a typical 6/8s or 5/8s razor and it doesn't respond to conservative honing and it has a narrow bevel I will try and enlarge that bevel abit and that is what it usually takes to get it into shape.

I've found some ebay razors where the edge metal seemed to have oxidized internally or something -- the metal looked good, but when you put it on the hone it crumbles and chips away. The cure for these is to keep honing until you get to good steel. The microscope really helps with this.
09-30-2006, 04:28 PM
urleebird

Can't stay...bye bye, now...
10-01-2006, 03:29 AM
Joe Lerch

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwoood

The width of the bevel is determined by its ange and the thickness of the blade where the bevel starts.

Actually, bevel angles fall in a very narrow range, and non-wedges will have front porton that they try to get as thin as possible, which is also pretty consistent. That pins down the bevel width, which will also be pretty consistent, especially on a given size/model of razor. It's just trigonometry.

Where I have seen variation is when a razor has a lot of spine wear. Then the bevel angle gets steeper and the bevel witdh increases.
10-01-2006, 03:42 AM
Joe Lerch

Quote:

Originally Posted by mparker762

I've found some ebay razors where the edge metal seemed to have oxidized internally or something -- the metal looked good, but when you put it on the hone it crumbles and chips away. The cure for these is to keep honing until you get to good steel. The microscope really helps with this.

I've noticed this on most of the old razors I get on Ebay. I first noticed it when an edge that seemed OK on the 4K suddenly develop microscopic chips when I went to the 8K. It seems that with the thinner edge the oxidized metal didn'y have enough strength and just collapsed. After I honed it the way you described, I got a beautiful edge.

Then I went back and checked all of my old Ebay razors and noticed that most of them had this problem to some degree. I was ableto improvr the shave even on ones that were OK.
10-03-2006, 09:46 AM
AFDavis11
Bill,

Very nice post. I really appreciate you sharing that. I wonder if your razors "draw" on a strop then? I have a theory about strop draw that your honing technique could answer.

Its nice when you know enough about straights to really see the valuable posts. This one was gold!
Quote:
Originally Posted by urleebird

Redwood has it down pretty darn close.

I find that the width of the cutting edge is directly proportional to three characteristics

Thickness at the spine
Width of the blade
And... thickness of the blade at the cutting edge
The third characteristic, I think, having the most to do with it. To illustrate, notice that the closer a blade gets to the profile of a wedge shaped blade, the wider the cutting edge winds up being.

In addition, I probably break everyone else's rules here when it comes to honing. I use considerable pressure at the beginning of each stage of honing on each of the stones I use with and emphasis on the edge rather than the spine. I only lighten up on the pressure with the last 5 -10 strokes on each one of them. ( I normally use only 3 stones )

This process creates an opportunity to address the very edge of the cutting bevel when it is time to strop. To put it more simply, the back edge of the bevel doesn't have to follow the plane of the front end of it to have great cutting ability.

The extra amount removed from the back of the bevel on a straight razor edge would only be recognizable under some pretty good magnification. But it is often enough to get a very good cutting edge, especially on some of the lesser quality steels. This means that only the very edge of the blade is addressed... not necessarily the entire cutting bevel. ( There... my secret is out :rolleyes: )

The width of the bevel, however, is not an indication on how well the razor will shave. I have some with a 32nd edge that will shave the same as one that is near an 8th. The steel is also a big factor.

This is true on a lot of razors, but not so much with the full hollow grinds on wider blades. Looking at the cross section of one of these will reveal that there looks to be up to a quarter inch of parallel blade thickness before the upward sweep of the grind starts making it thicker. This would mean that you would have a narrower cutting bevel until you honed to that upward sweep as Redwood correctly points out.

If anyone wonders, I sharpen a razor with this progression

1,000 grit (only if the blade is really dull)
4,000 grit Norton
8,000 grit Norton
.5 green pasted leather honing bed (Hand American)
plain smooth leather on a honing bed (Hand American)
touch up on one of Tony's strops
10-03-2006, 03:24 PM
Kees

Quote:

Originally Posted by urleebird

This process creates an opportunity to address the very edge of the cutting bevel when it is time to strop. To put it more simply, the back edge of the bevel doesn't have to follow the plane of the front end of it to have great cutting ability.

The extra amount removed from the back of the bevel on a straight razor edge would only be recognizable under some pretty good magnification. But it is often enough to get a very good cutting edge, especially on some of the lesser quality steels. This means that only the very edge of the blade is addressed... not necessarily the entire cutting bevel. ( There... my secret is out :rolleyes: )

Bill, I don't understand this. Can you rephrase that or illustrate?
10-03-2006, 07:51 PM
AFDavis11

Normally the bevel runs exactly flush with the angle from edge to spine. A long triangle if you will, separated by what would be the hollow of the grind. What he is describing is honing the back end of the bevel lower than the line between egde and spine. This way the back of the bevel is out of the way and the razor rests directly on the edge when stropping, not on the edge and bevel as it does when I hone a razor. I assume you would have to strop a razor as such with a feather light touch.
10-04-2006, 02:21 AM
Joe Lerch

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

What he is describing is honing the back end of the bevel lower than the line between egde and spine. This way the back of the bevel is out of the way and the razor rests directly on the edge when stropping, not on the edge and bevel as it does when I hone a razor. I assume you would have to strop a razor as such with a feather light touch.

Can you explain this some more. I'm not following. I can't see how you can avoid resting on the bevel without lifting the spine. The edge, the bevel and the side of the spine are allin a plane because of the way a razor is honed.
10-04-2006, 04:18 AM
urleebird

Can't stay...bye bye, now...
10-04-2006, 05:32 AM
superfly

Quote:

Originally Posted by urleebird

Like I say, this is probably a significant deviance to methods that have been accepted for longer than I have been around.

Compound angle is recommended for sharpening knifes also. It is more durable than the straight triangular one. And at least couple of my new and honemeister honed razors had this compound angle when looked under magnification. It is self explainable since it saves time both in the factory and at the honemeister's workbench.

However, for a normal user maintaining his shaving rotation, there is no need for creating this kind of bevel...

Nenad
10-04-2006, 02:22 PM
Joe Lerch

Excellent! If there's anything I've learned from life, it's that the rules we learn, like not using too much pressure because you'll hone only the back of the bevel, often hinder with creative solutions.

Compound angles have always been used by knife sharpeners to create a more durable edge without having too large a working bevel. This achieves exactly that result, and it would be a great solution for those guys with the really tough beards.

I assume it's done with a little pressure honing AFTER you have the working bevel.
10-04-2006, 02:46 PM
FiReSTaRT

What would be the best way to MAINTAIN the compound angle?
10-04-2006, 05:26 PM
urleebird

Can't stay...bye bye, now...
10-04-2006, 10:13 PM
Kees

Quote:

Originally Posted by urleebird

Now, I'll really get everyone going. Theoretically, unless there are nicks in the blade to take out, you would never need to hone a razor at all. Continual stropping will eventually turn the edge into a saber grind of the edge. A saber grind is just a sloped grind with a bit of an arch to it. Rounded at the back of the bevel, so to speak.

Interesting observation, Billy!

Is this achieved by using an unpasted strop only or do you need to use a pasted strop first and then an unpasted strop? If this can be achieved with an unpasted strop only it would contradict the observations by Verhoeven (often quoted by Joe Lerch) who found that stropping does not remove metal but only realigns the edge.
10-04-2006, 11:03 PM
rickw

Bill's description of a saber edge sounds like the convex edge used on better scissors or some heavy duty knives. If you use a scary sharp system with leather under the abrasive sheet you can get this edge. The edge trails a lifted spine.

Rick
10-05-2006, 11:49 PM
AFDavis11

Beautiful description Bill and the pics are great. So what do you see as the benefits to your method? You mentioned stropping, could you be more specific? Is there an advantage to stropping on the edge alone? Am I correct in my assumption that a light touch is used? Does this lead to greater edge life? Are there any other advantages that might exist that I haven't thought of? Finally, I suspect that there is little reason to hone on the high grit with pressure. What is the functional purpose of this step? (I do understand the cosmetic reasoning)

Ofcourse, feel free to correct me if my assumptions are wrong.
10-06-2006, 04:22 AM
urleebird

Can't stay...bye bye, now...
10-06-2006, 05:19 AM
FiReSTaRT

I've gotta get me one of those :w
10-06-2006, 05:40 AM
randydance062449

Hey Bill, many thanks for the very descriptive post!:)
I am sure that now many people will be thinking of this method of honing. The micro bevel- compound bevel approach has been around for some time and is very good. The only thing about it is that it is hard to duplicate the angles precisely. However, it just may be that there is no need for duplication of the exact same angle's except for the last, micro bevel. Perhaps many of us are already doing this but not really aware of it. I know that I use some pressure to remove old steel and nicks then lighten up after that.

Good thread guys!:)
10-06-2006, 12:45 PM
Kees

Quote:

Originally Posted by urleebird

mentioned.

Figure B shows an exaggerated view of a blade that is being slightly flexed by using more pressure at the edge. This pressure takes more metal off of the high side of the cutting edge. (edge closest to the spine) Of course, the closer the blade configuration is to a wedge, the less flex there will be. So, mostly, I use this technique for 1/4 hollow grind blades and thinner.

Bill,

IMHO you create a hollow honed bevel this way, what do you think?
10-06-2006, 01:47 PM
Joe Lerch

Quote:

Originally Posted by randydance062449

Perhaps many of us are already doing this but not really aware of it. I know that I use some pressure to remove old steel and nicks then lighten up after that.

I use pressure too when I start on a new Ebay acquisition, but I've never noticed a compound bevel (I always use a microscope the first time I hone a razor). I think you need to use a LOT of pressure to cause the edge to rise, especially with the bigger razors I've been getting lately.
10-06-2006, 01:51 PM
Joe Lerch

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees

IMHO you create a hollow honed bevel this way, what do you think?

No, I think it is either a compound bevel or the upper part of the bevel bows out, not in.
10-06-2006, 02:56 PM
Kees

Joe, if anything I do not think it will bow out. Just take a twig, bend it and cut off lengthwise with a straight cut some of the bark and the wood on the convex side of the bow and then "unbend" it. You'll notice you created a dent rather than a bump.
10-06-2006, 03:01 PM
Kees

Quote:

Originally Posted by urleebird

Many times I cheat. I have a 2 x 72 inch leather belt that I put on my burr king. It works real good at getting the edge dialed in. Paste or no paste...

Bill, do you go to the shed in the morning to strop?
10-06-2006, 05:10 PM
urleebird

Can't stay...bye bye, now...
10-06-2006, 05:24 PM
Joe Lerch

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees

Joe, if anything I do not think it will bow out. Just take a twig, bend it and cut off lengthwise with a straight cut some of the bark and the wood on the convex side of the bow and then "unbend" it. You'll notice you created a dent rather than a bump.

This is not the same thing. In your example you are putting a flat cut on a curved branch. When you straighten the branch you will have a concave cut.

In our case, you have a bevel which is being pressed so hard that the edge rises off the stone, and you end up honing behind the edge. If your pressure was constant, you would produce a flat bevel behind the edge, and that bevel would have a steeper bevel angle. If you vary the pressure, the bevel behind the edge bevel is rounded, because you have a series of bevels. As you reduce the pressure (theonly way to affect the shape of the new bevel), you create a bevel closer to the edge with a larger bevel angle, the largest being the original bevel. That is a convex or outwardly bowing bevel.