Jnat Finishing Routines--what are yours?

Just though I'd see what everybody does when finishing on their Jnats. Obviously they have widely different properties & we all come off different stones 1st, so let's share what they are.

My usual method on a lvl5+ Oozuku is:

• Good edge off the Norton
• Lights slurry from tomonagura, do circles, x-strokes until scratch pattern has been reduced (but not totally wiped out) in scope
• Clean stone, razor; raise lighter slurry, do circles until bevels start to stick (60 or so total), switch to x-strokes
• When sticking reduces, dilute--normally 3-5 stages to clear water
• Palm strop 20x, clean stone, razor well
• 10-20 ultra light x-strokes w/ water only
• Strop

Little side note: I'm obviously looking @ prepolishers & also something faster than the Norton eventually (torn between Shapton GS & pros), so I don't have to make a thicker slurry 1st, as I find that to be slightly less consistent (can overdo it or even slurry-dull). I can beat DE blades if I get everything right here, but I'm still slightly curious to try an old Atoma 1200 for slurry just to see what it does. (I know new diamonds will scratch, but I know Oz & Alx get good results w/ Atoma, so I'm curious.) If I don't like it, I'd go right back to tomonagura.

Right then, what are your favorite methods, gents?

My finishing on Jnat's is a bit too psychedelic to document but lately I've been doing something akin to Iwasaki san's honing instructions. I will do 5-10 light swipes on felt sprayed with 0.5 diamond then do 3 -5 strokes on my finest Jnat, dry , no water. Strop linen & leather after, of course.

Re the Atoma 1200 I only do 5-10 very light pressure circles on my finest Jnat to raise "slurry". The "slurry" is only slightly visible in the water drops on the blade. I may/may not proceed to water only after that.

The scratches from the Atoma are only visible on the stone because of the raised pimples on the plate. In effect less contact with the diamonds makes them stand out.

Re the side note. Very little experience with Nortons but I find my Kuromaku pro's are considerably faster than my GS stones.

I raise a slurry with the Atoma 1.2, usually light, and hone back and forth, diluting as I go, until it is basically just water. At that point I continue honing, but I gently blow on to the hone to evaporate the water until it I am dry honing. A few laps on the dry stone and I stop.

Other times I will just hone straight on the Jnats without slurry - it really does depend on the stone and the razor, and what I have done beforehand to get there.

On a side note with the Atomas, I managed after several years to kill my 1.2K. Well, it is not entirely dead but a portion of the surface is now diamond free. :( I have ordered two of the new Atomas - the ones with the replaceable diamond-embedded steel on top of a aluminium base held together with double-sided tape. It will be interesting to see how these go, and how cost-effective they will be in the long run with only having to replace the diamond top.

James.

Lately I have been having good luck with just a few drops of water on my Japanese finishers. No slurry, just a few no pressure circles followed by a few no pressure x's. I love these natural stones.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

...I've been doing something akin to Iwasaki san's honing instructions.

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Where did you find his instructions? I'm curious :D

I have old atoma 1.2k and totally dislike it for slurry making, leaves too many scratches on the stone for my liking.
For finishing I have a very nice fine tomonagura that I make slurry with , then when the slurry is well worked and broken down I dilute to finish on water only.

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Where did you find his instructions? I'm curious

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JimR did a translation of his protocol-I think it's called "Honing Razors & Kamisori". Here's the link:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/gener...-kamisori.html

Nakayama Asagi hone : 10-15 "X" stroke laps , with water .

For finishing, an old japanese barber hone that hasn't been lapped in a long time. 5 sets of circles with some pressure, then circles with no pressure, and then maybe 10Xs followed by bare leather. No slurry ever, just plain water.

It makes no difference how I get to the point of using that barber hone, every razor has come off of it with a nice smooth shave.

I do the same thing above about once a week to the razor (daily shaver, same razor all week - yeah, I know, boring). The stone is so fine I suspect it's removing less material than any strop/balsa with 0.5 micron compound, and it does nothing to alter the geometry of the razor so it's very easy to keep everything in good shaving shape.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Re the side note. Very little experience with Nortons but I find my Kuromaku pro's are considerably faster than my GS stones.

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You've got me leaning toward the pros now: thinking 1,5,12 should do it. Do you soak them @ all or do you just spray water on them & hone? And how are they to lap? I guess what I'm asking is do they have a tendency to swell/warp like Naniwa SS sometimes can?

Have heard talk of late of actually Honing on slurry till it drys out and continued honing on basically powdered Slurry,what up with that?

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Have heard talk of late of actually Honing on slurry till it drys out and continued honing on basically powdered Slurry,what up with that?

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That method works well on some stones (typically slower ones) & not too well on many others. A lot of stones will either slurry-dull or swiss cheese the edge if you use that much slurry for too long. I tried it on my Oozuku once--the edge was dull & a bit harsh.

Many stones work best on light slurry (you can dilute to water or not--it depends on a lot of factors) or even plain water.

Best thing to do is ask the seller what works best on it--they're all different.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Have heard talk of late of actually Honing on slurry till it drys out and continued honing on basically powdered Slurry,what up with that?

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Originally Posted by PA23-250

That method works well on some stones (typically slower ones) & not too well on many others. A lot of stones will either slurry-dull or swiss cheese the edge if you use that much slurry for too long. I tried it on my Oozuku once--the edge was dull & a bit harsh.

Many stones work best on light slurry (you can dilute to water or not--it depends on a lot of factors) or even plain water.

Best thing to do is ask the seller what works best on it--they're all different.

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Hence the problem with Natural stones hehehe or the Romance of a natural stone depends on how you look at it...

The first thing you have to do is figure out if the slurry coming off of your stone is Friable (breaks down) if it doesn't. then you need to go to water, if it does then you need to see whether it works better diluting to water, or going to dry :p

My Nakyama is a very hard stone, yet the slurry breaks down, and as it goes too dry it feels as though you are honing on fine talc, the problem is that at the presssures we use on western razors it takes eons to break down the slurry... You are better off leaving the old slurry on the stone, When honing Kamisori this is not a problem as the pressure and how you work the razor aids in the slurry breaking down...

Ain't honing at this level fun ??? :rofl2:

That it is! :D

AFAIK all Kyoto (finishing) hones have friable grit particles that break down in thickness rather than size (Max, Alx & So say they do & I believe them), but the question I think is how much & how quickly it breaks down.

Let's say you have a hone that takes longer to do this & you make a lot of slurry. You could dull or eat the edge before it has a chance to do its thing. Then, the cutting power could be slowed to the point where you can't recapture the sharpness you lost early on & you could think your stone is no good when it's fine & you just made too much slurry. Especially w/ what Glen said about the pressure & sharpening area of western razors.

[QUOTE=onimaru55;903313]My finishing on Jnat's is a bit too psychedelic to document but lately I've been doing something akin to Iwasaki san's honing instructions. I will do 5-10 light swipes on felt sprayed with 0.5 diamond then do 3 -5 strokes on my finest Jnat, dry , no water. Strop linen & leather after, of course.
QUOTE]
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Onimaru55

I just tried 6 consecutive razors with this method. The razors were shave ready basically. The results on all six blades were phenomenal. I did the .5 micron diamond on SRD felt and the 5-6 laps on a dry Nakayama Maruichi Asagi I got from old_school several years ago. Then 75 laps on horsebutt. Whew!!! That's a beautiful finish.

Thank you for posting this one. Six consecutive blades is no fluke. It works.

Jerry
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Originally Posted by PA23-250

You've got me leaning toward the pros now: thinking 1,5,12 should do it. Do you soak them @ all or do you just spray water on them & hone? And how are they to lap? I guess what I'm asking is do they have a tendency to swell/warp like Naniwa SS sometimes can?

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1, 5,12 could be a nice progression but I often use 1.5 & 2k as well. I find the 1.5 ,2 & 8 can fit somewhere in there more often than not & the small jumps help keep the stones flat too, useful when doing a handful of wedges which I try to mostly avoid :p Typically on a razor in good shape 2k is plenty for a light bevel set. Don't be misled by the numbers 1k -1.5k are quite a marked difference like 800 -1200 in the Kings. It is a system of varied uses & the 320 is really cool for eBay monsters too. I just run them under the tap/faucet to lap them then light spray with water in use, very light.
I have no probs lapping with the Atoma 400 & 1200 plates. The stones are very stable & don't warp much at all. In use they keep shape nicely too even when doing multiple blades. Like most ceramics prolonged soaking is a no no as is soap, hot water & temp extremes.



[QUOTE=mrsell63;903925]

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

My finishing on Jnat's is a bit too psychedelic to document but lately I've been doing something akin to Iwasaki san's honing instructions. I will do 5-10 light swipes on felt sprayed with 0.5 diamond then do 3 -5 strokes on my finest Jnat, dry , no water. Strop linen & leather after, of course.
QUOTE]
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Onimaru55

I just tried 6 consecutive razors with this method. The razors were shave ready basically. The results on all six blades were phenomenal. I did the .5 micron diamond on SRD felt and the 5-6 laps on a dry Nakayama Maruichi Asagi I got from old_school several years ago. Then 75 laps on horsebutt. Whew!!! That's a beautiful finish.

Thank you for posting this one. Six consecutive blades is no fluke. It works.

Jerry
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Thanx for the feedback Jerry. I've only recently adopted this & don't find it always repeatable but 6 in a row is good run. I think the razor may dictate outcome a little too but if it's somewhat lacking or as good as you think it can get it's worth a try.

I'd sort of like to get the 2k & even the Atoma 400 as well (worried about the DMT 325 sticking to the 12k), but I don't know if I can swing it, money wise. You can probably avoid removing too much metal on the 1k by keeping the strokes light, right? I think I'm pretty much sold on the pros now! :)

What do you mean the particles break down in thickness rather than size? Do you mean the slurry gets thinner and the actual grit level never changes?

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Originally Posted by bloodhoundman

What do you mean the particles break down in thickness rather than size? Do you mean the slurry gets thinner and the actual grit level never changes?

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they split in flakes, like puff pastry for example

Oh, I see. Thanks

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Originally Posted by PA23-250

You can probably avoid removing too much metal on the 1k by keeping the strokes light, right? I think I'm pretty much sold on the pros now! :)

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You can do all sorts of things ,even experiment with slurries from BBW's, Coticules etc etc.. The pro's excel with light strokes. Could actually be a bad thing for heavy handed beginners.

I have a shapton 1k pro and love it. I wouldnt hesitate to recommend it

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Originally Posted by mainaman

they split in flakes, like puff pastry for example

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Good analogy! :tu

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Originally Posted by PA23-250

I'd sort of like to get the 2k & even the Atoma 400 as well (worried about the DMT 325 sticking to the 12k), but I don't know if I can swing it, money wise. You can probably avoid removing too much metal on the 1k by keeping the strokes light, right? I think I'm pretty much sold on the pros now! :)

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If you use the DMT under running water, you'll have no issues with it. I used a DMT for a while before I wore it out abusing it on other stuff, and only replaced it with the atoma after that.

[QUOTE=mrsell63;903925]

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

My finishing on Jnat's is a bit too psychedelic to document but lately I've been doing something akin to Iwasaki san's honing instructions. I will do 5-10 light swipes on felt sprayed with 0.5 diamond then do 3 -5 strokes on my finest Jnat, dry , no water. Strop linen & leather after, of course.
QUOTE]
__________________________________________


Onimaru55

I just tried 6 consecutive razors with this method. The razors were shave ready basically. The results on all six blades were phenomenal. I did the .5 micron diamond on SRD felt and the 5-6 laps on a dry Nakayama Maruichi Asagi I got from old_school several years ago. Then 75 laps on horsebutt. Whew!!! That's a beautiful finish.

Thank you for posting this one. Six consecutive blades is no fluke. It works.

Jerry
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I've noticed that diamond spray on felt fixes anything. If you're going to finish with diamond spray, though, what is the point of using anything other than an 8k norton?

[QUOTE=woodsmandave;904860]

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Originally Posted by mrsell63

I've noticed that diamond spray on felt fixes anything. If you're going to finish with diamond spray, though, what is the point of using anything other than an 8k norton?

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I agree with your statement but If you reread my post you'll see I don't 'finish' on diamond. I finish on a Nakayama Asagi after using the diamond very sparingly to remove any slight remnants of a burr. A similar technique is documented in Kosuke Iwasaki's book on honing tho he used CrO.
There's a link in this thread if you haven't read it:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/gener...-kamisori.html

I post w/ trepidation. Onimaru was insanely kind and patient w/ my ignorance about learning the jnat. I've not mastered the 3-stroke finish and call it good. FWIW, I'd pay attention to his posts on jnats. I do, and will keep doing so.

That said, my flailing about has given me edges I love. I'll either go Nani 8, N12, then very very light slurry w/ Atoma 1.2 on a Nakayama Asagi. Typically about 50 circles (varies) each direction, each side, and dilute in 3-4 stages to clear water. If its extra hollow, I might not go all the way to clear water or I get some harshness.
Alternately, I'll go from a set bevel to a fast coti to the Asagi w/ a heavier slurry and dilute to water. On regular hollows, any harshness is eliminated by 3-6 strokes on the dry stone. Extra hollows have seemed to need more - or I go to a thuringian to smooth it out.

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Originally Posted by pinklather

On regular hollows, any harshness is eliminated by 3-6 strokes on the dry stone. Extra hollows have seemed to need more - or I go to a thuringian to smooth it out.

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if you have such problems with hollows it is possible you are doing too many strokes.

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Originally Posted by pinklather

On regular hollows, any harshness is eliminated by 3-6 strokes on the dry stone. Extra hollows have seemed to need more - or I go to a thuringian to smooth it out.

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Hi Robert :) Just remember not all razors come out perfectly smooth for whatever reason. Sometimes you can only optimise a razor to it's best ability rather than your ability or what you're used to from a fave razor.
As an extreme example imagine trying to hone a Pakistani razor to the degree an Iwasaki razor can reach. There will be all number of degrees in between with various razors & comprise is often inevitable.

Stephan, yes - I don't quite have the feel in my fingers to know when its overbaked yet. I've no doubt you're right. And you've mentioned how 'circles 'til it gets sticky, x-strokes on water until lets go a bit. I can't feel the let go at this point.

Oz, You've always been most gratious to us - reminding that not all razors have the same potential. As Madeleine Cann said in Blazing Saddles: "Its Twue, its twue"! 'Said it before, but your counsel on the jnat sticks with me probably more than you might think, including 'you're not using it as a finisher'. 'hard to say how much I appreciate your kind help.

On my stone, sticking is not too bad so long as very light pressure is used, the razor is ready to be finished and the surface of the stone is not glazed. Maybe I'm the odd one on this, but I hadn't lapped my stone since I got it, the surface was like a mirror, I was getting lots of chattering no matter how little water/pressure I used, it was very slow & increasingly tricky to achieve the final edge--exactly like before I first lapped it.

I did a few figure-8s w/ my well-worn DMT 325 & just for fun, played w/ a blade that needed a touchup. As I predicted, 325 is still a little coarse for that stone, so no final edge, even allowing for longer slurry breakdown. THe surface still was somewhat reflective, though. I smoothed it back out w/ my coticule slurry stone (3 slurries each side; BBW & cot) & a heavy slurry w/ my tomonagura. Surface was slightly shinier from an angle, but looked "cleaner" from above if that makes sense.

Touched up another razor & it came out great--feedback was good, responded well to dilution & if I felt any resistance after a dilution I just did a few circles & checked again that it was gone--then a few x-strokes & that same pattern to water. Palm stropped, more water-only strokes, stropped & popped hairs well. Need to shave-test, but I'm almost wondering if my stone sort of has a "sweet spot" for surface smoothness: too rough & it releases bigger particles; too smooth & it glazes easily & turns almost into a burnishing plate w/ very little abrasion. "Just right" allows for the final edge. Not sure. :confused:

UPDATE: Sure enough, the DMT slurry did not give the final edge, while the tomonagura slurry did. Touched up both & actually slightly overdid it on both--too much time on water only I think. I then tried a trick I heard So recommends for that: 5 strokes dry followed by stropping.

Haven't shave tested yet, but has anyone else tried dry strokes to fix the very beginning of overhoning on these stones?