BBW & Coticule Slurry Experiment

So I have had a little experiment with a relatively soft steel in a 5/8th Wapienica:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honing/75142-gradually-improving-edge-experience.html

Some time ago I began to experiment with this same edge I've familiarized myself with, this time with light slurries on the spyderco ultra-fine (my finisher). First I did a belgian blue waterstone slurry and that produced rough shaves, irritation all over for more than a day. This lasted past the fourth shave so I knew it wasn't the finisher (which can be harsh for 1-3 shaves, but usually not more than two). I also taped and re-honed a 9/16th Geneva, which are known to be hard American carbon steel razors. The harder Geneva was given an equivalent primary bevel width to the Wapienica, just so you know. The reason I make note of the cutting edge's bevel width is it helps to gauge the steel's hardness and response to the hones, as well as the honer's ability to hone, by keeping the surface area of the edge's ratio to perceived pressure of the honer more constant between razors. The Geneva was sharp enough to cut well, and was giving harsh shaves, but wasn't nearly as harsh as the Wapienica with the same light BBW slurry. I'm guessing that because the Geneva was harder it was less degraded with the BBW slurry, and only because of less degradation was it an okayish shave. I don't like the shaves off the BBW slurry on the finisher, diluting to clear with water on the spyderco ultra-fine.

Because I wasn't able to "break down" the BBW's slurry adequately I can't delude myself into thinking I had finished a blade with something like reports of the BBW as a possible finisher. But I know I hate that slurry for a finished edge! I went back to my beloved Wapienica and gave it a coticule slurry, of similar lightness to the BBW, from my BBW/coticule "bout" (slurry stone). Now... Wapienica being a softer steel that can take a smooth, gentle edge... whoo boy! You can see from my linked experiment with this razor as a learning tool that I didn't bother to take the Wapienica to "ultimate sharpness" or some other nonsense! I estimate the coticule slurry spydie UF to have been no more than 35-40 laps, as I recall. That edge proved to be just a little harsh for only one shave, after that... oh my oh my they are selling re-scaled NOSs like I got from the polish dealer on eBay back in '08 for over a hundred dollars these days, aren't they? Makes sense to me. Coticule slurry was delightful. Similar dilutions, same finishing hone (really using the highest grit to prevent slurry swarf from lodging into the hone) for practically the same number of laps. Same bevel width. Definitely different hardnesses between the Wapi and the Geneva.

Next I'll have to go back to the Geneva, which kept its edge better under the Belgian Assault, and see what a coticule slurry can do! Also must note I used my pre-finisher, my Norton 8k*, to reset the Wapienica's edge between the BBW and coticule light slurry finishes.

*for the record my pre-finisher 8k is a serviceable finishing stone for many, especially w/ crox pasted strop.

I'm wondering how I can help to "develop" the BBW slurry without adding steel swarf to the mix on my finisher. I have a Chinese "12k" bout which I don't think I can use on the spyderco ultra-fine because it is of high enough grit to get lodged into the ridiculously awful, obviously machined lapping. It hasn't produced disasterous impactions but I can see it on two inches of one end of the hone. If it weren't for the terrible machined lapping and the equivalent fineness of grit on that Spyderco I'd freely use that, because the Chinese bout is so hard and very fine slurry particles probably wouldn't interfere with the finished product, the bulk of the slurry particles would be the BBW for sure.

I know I know... give my face a rest. It hasn't been a terrible experiment. I just have a few days of pinkness, not bad enough for soreness or tenderness, my face shows it through discoloration well before pain or sensitivity. It makes my face the perfect experimental laboratory! Whoopee! I have resumed "the good life" with a Sheffield steel English, smiley classic (Taylor Eye Witness Imperial Service razor) whose edge apparently degraded enough to be unrecognizable to the person who honed it a year and a half ago (me!). Whether it was from oxidation or it had collapsed after the 2-3 acceptable shaves it provided so long ago... I don't know. But, if Sheffield steel has a reputation as softer razor steels I looked at the slight hone wear, the narrowness of its spine and the width (almost 6/8th) and concluded it could benefit from one layer of tape. So, primary edge bevel 1 layer on secondary untaped bevel... Naniwa 5k clean-up (awful micro-chipping yikes!), Norton 8k polish, Spyderco ultra-fine (but not too far, content to learn the lessons of the linked post) and then I CHEATED by finally finishing on the chromium oxide pasted paddle strop (Tony Miller, no longer vintage since he resumed production (damn!)). I haven't used the "crox" for over a year and a half! I'm kidding about it being cheating. I really appreciate it strengthening an edge with slight rounding, because I already found reason to tape the razor. I re-stropped after the chromium and wow did that thing make a raucous! 6/8thish full hollow racket! It was 10-15 laps on crox and what a sweet, smooth shave. Very little harshness (haven't shaved with a crox-finished blade in a long time so it's important to note the difference in my skill). Second shave was as smooth and gentle as I've learned to expect.

Delicious. I'm kidding about cheating, I was just holding back from the crox because I wanted to gauge what was happening to the edges and the resultant shaves off them without having an excellent final finishing stage obscuring the honer's skill and finishes off the hone(s) w/ or w/o slurry. Maybe some of the Sheffield steels have a reputation for not taking a high-grit synthetic well, and maybe that was part of the Taylor's downful (can't say, it was too long ago and never checked it with a microscope after using it a few times, also may have been the edge need obtusification), but this Taylor has taken to high-grit finishes very well. Oh, because of the taping I happened upon a primary edge bevel width similar to the Geneva and the Wapienica. This taping thing allows for a level of edge control beyond simply fixing overly acute (i.e. fragile) edges and preventing spine wear. Lots of fun!

Now I have some wedges almost completed (3) that I can learn how to hone, just a few shallow chips left in the intended secondary bevels set with only one layer of tape, of course. I really appreciate being able to control the primary bevel's width utilizing tape. I think I'm pretty much done trying to critique myself on the honing, shaving with razors not finished on the crox. But it was certainly useful for seeing what that coticule slurry did for that Wapienica.

Thoughts? Ideas? Advice?

You've certainly been around much longer than me, and perhaps your face is softer, but I've been shaving "straight off the rock", for about a month now. No redness, irritation, or pulling. I never heard anybody say the first three shaves oughta be rough. Have I missed something? If my first shave is rough, I grab a different razor, and take the "rough" razor back to the stones. I tend to skim...So maybe this is just me pointing out I don't pay enough attention.

Guess you're not such a regular joe after all. I've been shaving "of the rock" for about 12-15 times that.. so...

I've read plenty who feel they haven't "dialed in" their razors until the 2-3rd shave. I'm not exactly dependent on abrasive pasted strops for finishing my razors. Keratosis pilarus? You may have missed something. I prefer shaving every 1.5 days, not every day (1 day). You didn't mention your finisher, either (you're too busy skimming).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by axelh

I haven't used the "crox" for over a year and a half!

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I use a coticule for everything after 1200 grit. My razors don't have dials, which is good because it must be a pretty complicated dial to take three shaves to get it set. :P Poor guys.

Justin

Not so bad. You see, for me, it is about some pink bloom that persists for tens of minutes, if that, after the shave. Not the full blown redness for an entire day as in this slurry experiment. You are a skimmer. We're talking about ideals, not the basics. My first shave off the rocks and the paste are usually very good, if I'm not dinking around with stuff. So you're whole perspective is still warped. The whole "dialed in" thing is they feel the edge is smoothed by the use of the razor, and the peak of sharpness coinciding with smoothness will realistically occur after the razor has been used a few times, or at least more than once. We're talking more about ideals than practicalities. From my recollection of a few threads over a few years it's not like the razors were unsafe, or providing unsatisfactory shaves or problematic irritation.

You've missed something, regularjoe (maybe you're a regular joe after all!). It's really in the OP. I understand you don't get your sick kicks watching repulsive monstrosities like myself talk about their shaving life. No one forced me to use a BBW slurry, it's generally not recommended as a finisher. Mine are experiments, open-minded experiments. Just take it easy and slow down, read things through and let it all sink in.

I don't think you understood at all. Thanks for clarifying that several people are under the impression that the edge is smoothed by the use of the razor, and the peak of sharpness and smoothness will occur after the razor has been used a few times. The part I missed was that several people think that. I understood the rest just fine.

I don't think several people thinking that way makes it "the norm". It's really not important to your post, but I'd appreciate if you'd cut the condescension a tad. I made no attacks on your personal abilities or knowledge. I just asked for some clarification, and judging by the lack of input from anybody else, I'd say I'm the only one that even cared enough to respond at all. So show a little respect for my completely qualified experience as a grown adult, who doesn't appreciate being talked down to.

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

I don't think you understood at all. Thanks for clarifying that several people are under the impression that the edge is smoothed by the use of the razor, and the peak of sharpness and smoothness will occur after the razor has been used a few times. The part I missed was that several people think that. I understood the rest just fine.

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I'm sorry. Please consider the length of the OP and why I wouldn't want to get into greater detail over every thing, I don't think the length of the post contributes to its "readability". I should also add that "harshness" of a shave may not be redness, however temporary, but also how the skin feels when an alcohol-based aftershave is slapped on, as a tool for understanding how the razor affects the skin.

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Originally Posted by regularshmoe

I don't think several people thinking that way makes it "the norm". It's really not important to your post, but I'd appreciate if you'd cut the condescension a tad.

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I'm pretty sure it is the norm, whether or not people want to acknowledge it. There are descriptions of "stickiness", of the razor sticking to the face, how the super-sharpness of it can more easily lead to nicks or cuts, etc. I've noticed it (the descriptions from others and my own experience). I'll get to this later with my own particular hideousness.

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Originally Posted by regularjustin

I made no attacks on your personal abilities or knowledge.

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Okay.

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

I just I use a coticule for everything after 1200 grit. My razors don't have dials, which is good because it must be a pretty complicated dial to take three shaves to get it set. :P Poor guys.

Justin

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Playful with the "other people" and their dialing. Well, this is just about using the same razor again, not taking a trip back to "the rock" (BTW, I love to hit "the rock", love that term!).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

You've certainly been around much longer than me, and perhaps your face is softer, but I've been shaving "straight off the rock", for about a month now. No redness, irritation, or pulling. I never heard anybody say the first three shaves oughta be rough.

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I never said that anyone should have 3 shaves with a fresh blade that oughta be rough. Dialed in. The best shaves in a razor's life cycle. My rough is not your rough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

Have I missed something? If my first shave is rough, I grab a different razor, and take the "rough" razor back to the stones. I tend to skim...So maybe this is just me pointing out I don't pay enough attention.

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Well, in this context, for me putting the blade back on the stones would ensure it stays rough, for the level of roughness and the kind of roughness I'm describing, for at least one more shave. And now you know what I mean. That's the clarification we've all been looking for. Not only that, but we've both made a new enemy (and we could all use a few more of those)! For instance, at this point in "the game" I have a new narrow little coticule (lapped it from severely dished) to play with and I'm secretly envious of you for being able to coax a great edge out of a one-stop-rock, the mysterious power of mother nature, something more exotic and alluring than my stupid synthetics. You've got the up on me and I'm intimidated and confronted with my own self-esteem issues, rather than acknowledging and dealing with my inner-issues I am now acting out against you in the form of hostile condescension in a public forum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

I just asked for some clarification, and judging by the lack of input from anybody else, I'd say I'm the only one that even cared enough to respond at all.

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That may be true! But since you respond in the thread you bounce it back to the front and I get to re-bounce it when I respond! Seriously, I do wonder how many people who open it even bother to read to the end...

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Originally Posted by regularjoeshmoe

So show a little respect for my completely qualified experience as a grown adult, who doesn't appreciate being talked down to.

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Yeah, well, I guess I should cut you some slack for not catching the whole pasted finishing thing, but I thought that was telling, as well as admitting yourself as a skimmer. (replace Ms with Ns) Perhaps the post was too long for it to register. Which leads me back to the disinclination to write everything up in enough detail to avoid all of our "problems". [sigh] It's difficult, isn't it, people of SRP?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

So maybe this is just me pointing out I don't pay enough attention.

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Correctamundo, joe. You can call this condescension or using your words against you or... I don't know. You sure are mean. I guess I am, too. You're the only one bothering to respond and we're both mean to each other even though we're communicating and growing and learning together... it's quite unpleasant, isn't it?

Now for additional learning and growing enjoyment:

The Freak

I have keratosis pilarus. Just wiki it, dammit. I have something like that. So with various kinds of DE blades I've learned that it's the first shave or so with a new edge that I can easily deliver little nicks/blood spots to my face, even with relatively unaggressive strokes (not just an open-razor holder with a 1/2 DE blade but also DE safety razors). It's not a big deal, it just happens and the nicks are very small and don't reopen during the post-shave routine (usually). It's the inevitable result of the razor interacting with the terrain. I noticed that a refreshed or successfully honed open razor produced the same delightful phenomena. Maybe it's skin stretching, maybe I can minimize it that way. Maybe I can take care of the skin better through skin scrubbing/facial and anti-microbial/acne skin care. I don't know. But it is more of a tendency of my skin, not a bloody mess. So, this is another factor in the "harshness" of the first shaves with a new edge. I'm guessing that the included angle of a blade's edge could also be a factor in the tendency of an edge to "bite". I feel it's reassuring me that I'm truly refreshing the edge (or made a good one). It's reassuring but the phenomena itself is not desirable. I like the gentleness of a stropped edge, one that's been used before. It's not really practical to strop DE blades, they're just use and toss. I consider this kind of subtle edge degradation to be a strength of str8s.

Why don't you guys take it to a PM format to hammer it out ? People might think SRP is not one big 'happy' family .... and you know we are. :angel:

This thread is not headed in a positive direction. Please try and get it on track. Dropping the verbal sparring would be an excellent place to start. Thanks very much.

Edit: Jimmy beat me to it.