C12k questions, how many passes??

Hi all,

I have been using a 4/8k Norton for general honing, and I have a C12k finisher as well as CrOx and Diamond paddles for further polishing.

One question is this: How many passes should I have to do on the C12k to get a good result? I have done as few as 40 and as many a 100 on it, but I can't tell if there is any difference.

After viewing the edge under a 30X loupe it looks like the basic scratches are reduced in some places, but not in all. Also, after 20 laps on a diamond paddle followed by 20 laps on CrOx on balsa, I notice no change whatsoever.

Does anyone have a recommendation of how many laps I should do on any particular one of those platforms? I am afraid to do too many laps on any one of these, but I am looking to get the best edge possible from the gear I have.

Thanks in advance for any replies!! :)

M

I've only owned one C12k, but I've read many times that they vary greatly from stone to stone.

Also--and I haven't read this one as much, so this is just me talking--the surface condition of your particular stone matters, too. Is it full of small scratches? Hazy? Polished like a mirror so you can clearly see a light bulb's filament reflected in it? Makes a difference, in my experience.

The number of passes will depend on the condition of the edge, steel type, and stone.
If you have very good edge from the stone used before the C12K you will not need to do so many passes to get more polish.
It is all about experimenting to see what works for you.

Cheers Mike,

As you probably know, the C12K hones can vary a lot, so to give advice on number of strokes is quite difficult, you just have to work your stone, trying different numbers of strokes and figure out what works best with your stone.

The testing I have done on mine so far, it looks like ~50 stokes w/slurry followed by ~75-100 on water is enough.

I wouldn't worry about doing too many strokes on a C12K, they are usually so slow that you will get cramp before hurting the razor.

Mike, after 8k, any finishing process will only make a very small %ge difference, no more than 5% as a random figure but it nonetheless should be quite obvious. The thing is , what kind of change are you after ? Sharpness, smoothness ? Both? Are you trying to make up for an incomplete bevel etc.. ?

Just a WAG but you might not be getting the most out of the earlier stages or the 8k. I think even the pasting you are doing should make a huge difference.
My final synthetic is usually a 12k but after finishing on my naturals something between 3-10 featherlight strokes on .5 diamond on felt can make or break the edge & sometimes the diamond is redundant.

I honed a Gold Dollar this week and finished on a c12k. I did about 120-150 strokes, 3 sets of 40-50 wasn't keeping count too much. After each set I stropped and tested a HHT after the 3rd set the HHT was as I like to see it.

Very similar to the edge from my Naniwa 12K but many more strokes.

PRESSURE is also a huge factor on the finer grits. With a 20X loupe I can often detect areas, usually toward the heel or toe depending on the razor, that need a little moderate pressure before the Naniwa 12k effects them. At this fine a grit I do not think that you can "over-hone" the bevel. It just gets very shiny. The real issue is are you just polishing the bevel or truly hitting the edge. This is where the earlier bevel setting at 1k, 4k and 8k really matter.

OPTIONAL HERETICAL recommendation is to only tape the spine at the 12k level. This will guarantee that you are hitting the edge on every pass. Light pressure is in order. This does create a micro-bevel of one or two degrees greater after only 20-30 strokes, but you can be sure it is a 12k edge. Remove the tape and most guys can shave without even stropping. But I would recommend a few passes on the leather (60-80).

It is still preferable to tease a full bevel to the finished level. However, it is trickier to do this well and will take more time and experience to master than the final micro-bevel method. I think you have a pretty complete setup to achieve perfection.

Good luck.

Attachment 89798

on my c-nat 50 laps with lite slurry and 50-75 with water lite touch hits the spot. i once did 200 stroke's on just water it was super sharp but the comfort of the shave suffered. for touching up on my c-nat 25-50 is good

Guys a bit off topic maybe, but I noticed that for the very
hard stones,like the chinese guangxi hone(CGH), the hardness
of the steel determines how many passes one would need. Now
this comes from using plane blades, not kamisoris.

The softer steel, high carbon 58-61 HRC, was like it was gliding
on the CGH, it did not feel like polishing at all. Basically almost
nothing was happening.Only by creating slurry with nagura I was
able to polish on the CGH.

When I used harder steel(63-64HRC) I was able to sharpen without
needing any nagura slurry. The harder steel was creating a minimum
amount of slurry on the CGH which made it work, whereas the softer
steel could not do this at all it and nothing was happening, hence requiring
a nagura slurry.

Make sense?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Mike, after 8k, any finishing process will only make a very small %ge difference, no more than 5% as a random figure but it nonetheless should be quite obvious. The thing is , what kind of change are you after ? Sharpness, smoothness ? Both? Are you trying to make up for an incomplete bevel etc.. ?

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That is excellent advice! I have the bevel set very nicely and the razor pops hair easily, but a close inspection with the loop shows many scratches still on the bevel, as would be expected.

However, I have been told (I believe I have experienced it with razors other have honed for me) that the bevel will polish up and some if not all of the scratches can be made invisible, i.e. the blade will smooth out greatly.

I'm simply trying for that 'mirror' edge that is supposed to be so smooth on your face. By looking at me, you can see at a glance that I have shaved with some poor razors that I have honed. I've learned pretty well what to look for after the 8k due to JaNorton. I'm simply trying to get the best out of my equipment, after all I paid good money for it and expect some result, any results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Just a WAG but you might not be getting the most out of the earlier stages or the 8k. I think even the pasting you are doing should make a huge difference.
My final synthetic is usually a 12k but after finishing on my naturals something between 3-10 featherlight strokes on .5 diamond on felt can make or break the edge & sometimes the diamond is redundant.

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Yes, indeed, after I've finished, I've done about 10 strokes on the diamond, then 10-20 strokes on a balsa CrOx paddle and it indeed smooths up very well. I find my best shaves come off the CrOx. But the real crux of my inquiry is about the C12k. Mine is VERY smooth, I lap it with a DMT 325 before each use, as I have learned from gssixgun, and have tried light slurry until the stone is almost dry, which is usually about 25 strokes before I have to add water to the surface again. The razors just push off any water and it dries incredibly fast. I don't think it absorbs anywater at all. I've soaked it overnight and had the same result, so I'm pretty sure it is not. After 3 passes of about 25 strokes, taking it to clear water, I have inspected the edge and found very little change, but in spots it is almost clear of scratches, so I'm wondering if I should go as high as say 200 laps on it? I was afraid of creating a wire edge if that is possible on such a hard stone. And I mean this baby is hard. The sides will be dry way before the 25 laps are up, and it is not from absorption I am pretty sure. it is just plain old hard. Now it has a couple of beautiful red stripes about an 1/8 of an inch thick running the width of the stone that I have never seen in a C12k before. I think it is a pretty special stone (IMHO, not know sh** about stones much). I follow up my paddles with a lot of stropping too in the hopes that will smooth it up some as well. I have stropped as many as 200 careful strokes on my 3" chestnut and had great shaves as well.

So I have shaved of the 8k with great success, but it was a little harsh to me, and tends to leave me with bumps, but no burn or nicks, etc. Just little ingrowns. This was after stropping as much as 200 strokes before using too. I was hoping smoothing the blades up was the solution to that. They shave without any pull or tug, but like I said, they leave me with bumps. I treat them with Witch Hazel, Tend-Skin et.al, but razors I hone tend to do that, whereas razors that say, Rene has honed for me (going up thru 12k+ in his progression) do NOT do that to me.

What say you to that long winded message my friend??

Thanks so much for your input, I want you to know I value it greatly!!

Mike

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SharpMan

Guys a bit off topic maybe, but I noticed that for the very
hard stones,like the chinese guangxi hone(CGH), the hardness
of the steel determines how many passes one would need. Now
this comes from using plane blades, not kamisoris.

The softer steel, high carbon 58-61 HRC, was like it was gliding
on the CGH, it did not feel like polishing at all. Basically almost
nothing was happening.Only by creating slurry with nagura I was
able to polish on the CGH.

When I used harder steel(63-64HRC) I was able to sharpen without
needing any nagura slurry. The harder steel was creating a minimum
amount of slurry on the CGH which made it work, whereas the softer
steel could not do this at all it and nothing was happening, hence requiring
a nagura slurry.

Make sense?

---

Hey, now that is fresh info!! I have some VERY hard steel razors, and the one I have been working on was a near wedge, and I used tape all the way thru until the paddles.

I have the exact stone you describe, the CGH as you call it, and it is indeed HARD!~! THis particular razor was creating some slight slurry of it's own, leaving a slight talcum feel to the surface when I was finished. But I did use my nagura on the first 25 laps anyway, as that is what I was taught..

Some that I have tried on that stone left no slurry of their own, and were extremely sharp when I finished, but still left me with some bumps after what I thought was an extremely nice shave. Within 2 or 3 hours I would start to itch and there they were, bumps again. Even going just 2 passes, which was almost BBS anyway, still left me bumps.

Thanks for all the info guys, it puts plenty of thoughts in my head!!

Mike

With the PHIG that I have, for most razors, 30-50 laps does the job.

A better way to tell when you are done is to look under magnification to see if you have replaced the former scratch pattern with a finer one from your c-nat. If it looks mostly polished with the loupe but still has scratches from the previous stone on the bevel you're not quite there yet.

As to how many strokes to use is a question without a promising answer, because every stone is different. Every person hones with different pressures throughout the progression also.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mjhammer

However, I have been told (I believe I have experienced it with razors other have honed for me) that the bevel will polish up and some if not all of the scratches can be made invisible, i.e. the blade will smooth out greatly.
Lack of scratches in the bevel does not equate to smooth shaves... well not always. :)

After 3 passes of about 25 strokes, taking it to clear water, I have inspected the edge and found very little change, but in spots it is almost clear of scratches, so I'm wondering if I should go as high as say 200 laps on it?
Here I would think an uneven stroke or slight warp. Depending on the extent of either or both , more passes may not solve the problem.
I can't think why else scratches remain while others go. Unless the polishing is simply revealing older or deeper scratches from earlier stones. If it's the latter there will be a mirror polishing effect across the whole edge with some deeper scratches revealed but if it's lack of contact there will be an obvious 8k finish still left in spots.

I was afraid of creating a wire edge if that is possible on such a hard stone. And I mean this baby is hard. I doubt it. Wire edges happen more commonly with fast cutting stones

So I have shaved of the 8k with great success, but it was a little harsh to me, and tends to leave me with bumps, but no burn or nicks, etc. Just little ingrowns. This was after stropping as much as 200 strokes before using too.
Puzzled here, "a little harsh but no burn ? Too much pressure maybe ?

I was hoping smoothing the blades up was the solution to that. They shave without any pull or tug, but like I said, they leave me with bumps. I treat them with Witch Hazel, Tend-Skin et.al, but razors I hone tend to do that, whereas razors that say, Rene has honed for me (going up thru 12k+ in his progression) do NOT do that to me.
Does sound like you may have the sharp side of things wired. No tugging or pulling is a good sign. Maybe you're closer than you think to to the optimal edge. Do a little more experimenting with more strokes on the C12k. People do talk about 100 or more & you have to figure out your own process but if you obsess about no scratch bevels you have to be equally obsessive thru your whole progression as earlier scratches will surface towards the end. Luckily mirror polishes are not essential to a good shave :) I think you said you've tried 40 & up to 100 so I feel you may have covered a reasonable range of passes. 200 or more runs the risk of botched strokes & really why is so many strokes needed ? I still can't help thinking the problem lies earlier in the progression, in spite of sharpness achieved.
That lack of contact or unresolved scratches showing in spots is a clue that should be chased up. We talk about the importance of bevels @1k & light minimal finishing strokes etc. but the mid ranges are equally important. If you skimped the 4k the 8k won't smooth the 1k stage.

What say you to that long winded message my friend?? Whew !! :)

Thanks so much for your input, I want you to know I value it greatly!!

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Edited a bit of your reply Mike but hope this helps & hope I'm not barking up the wrong tree :) If I had the razor in front of me I'd have more of a clue as I'm better with visuals but the red highlight rang alarm bells for me.