Does the vein run through the stone to the other side? If not lap the other side and try again
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Im in. I will start tomorrow
That's not good I'm sorry man I feel bad. With everybody talking about there stones having problem I looked at mine and there was color discoloration to it so without hesitation I lapped the other side cause it was all the same color. And with slurry the edge was back to normal in no time thank god hahaha
That's a interesting idea I'll have to remember that. I use a dmt card right now and it works great
I'm wondering if maybe some places that sell these stones grade them better. Because I bought my C-nat from a guy in Poland that seems to grade them, because I see he sells some labeled 8k and the one I bought was labeled 12k. I have heard of people buying a few of them from woodcraft before finding one they liked. Anyone else share the same opinion? Just a thought.
If you live near enough to an actual Woodcraft store, you could probably tell them what you're wanting it for and they'd let you open a few of them up before you make your decision. There's two Woodcrafts within two hours of my house, and they're extremely helpful in-store.
I meant if you are ordering them online is when i heard people buying a few before they like. I like woodcraft they have some good deals. Was just wondering if the Polish guy may grade them before he sells them because mine is an awesome stone and it's the first one I bought.
I'm In!!
Hones: King 800, King 1k, Norton 4/8 combo, C-Nat
My Cnat appears to be about 8k. I haven't lapped both sides. Mine has some really beautiful light red lines running right down thru the length.
IMO it is probably closer to an 8k than a 12k just based on feel. I have tried a few times to use it as a finisher, but usually they come out duller than after the 8k. I have found that using the 8k from slurry thru to clear water, sometimes using as many as 50-60 X strokes and 100 circles (20 circles at a time, followed by 15 X's) gives me a good edge off my 8k. I follow that with 100 laps on the felt and 200 laps on the leather and ended up with a pretty darn good shaver.
I have had trouble getting a sharp razor after the Cnat.
This stone is hard as hell tho. It will hone dry in about 25 X's. I've tried soaking it for hours, but that has no effect at all. This stone will not absorb water.
I have lapped it continously with my DMT 325 between uses, I've even tried rubbing it with my 1k to try and smooth it more. I've taken one of my Swaty's to it as well.
Slurry will form during the process of honing also. Depends on the razor hardness, but the harder ones will form their own slurry so I have to spray it off between times.
I will try again today on a razor I have shaving very well off the 8k and see if it improves or degrades. I may even do more lapping on it, or try the other side, as I've only lapped and chamfered one side. I have hardly any need of my slurry stone, and have yet to use it to any great effect.
I'll post up my finding later!!
Great idea, I really want to learn this stone better. It's a beauty and I'm sure I can figure it out!
Thanks Mack!!
Mike
mj, maybe yours acts more like some j-nats where it actually works better with slurry than without?
My C-nat leaves a better edge with slurry and ending on a lightly diluted slurry. Mine is very hard, and the polished surface is like glass when using the slurry stone (slippery). By scoring the surface of my stone and the slurry stone with 1K sandpaper lightly it makes it easier to create a slurry by polishing out the light 1k scratches. With lighter pressure with the slurry stone and taking more time to create the slurry makes an extremely fine slurry. Feels like pushing silky milk over a glass plate like sensation.
I have not needed to hone a razor in many, many, months.... I moved a few months ago and hadn't unboxed my stones from the move. I had a few razors that needed a touch up and pulled out my tools. I decided to post an article on my gplus about the stones and honing and did some quick googling to find out what the I in PHIG meant. I couldn't remember if it was in-determinant or ignominious. Anyway, that search led me full circle back to here. I haven't posted anything in a long time and I'm glad to see people are still adopting PHIGs.
I am a bit of a blasphemer because I do things differently and specific to what works for me and my abilities. I bought my PHIG from the guy in poland from an ebay sale where it was listed as a chinese 15,000 grit stone. My stone was a literal 2 foot long paver. I had a tile shop slice it up into several smaller stones which I sold to other members here. I kept one for myself from that original brick. At that time, I also had a coticule from Old Preu and an unlabled Thuringian aka Escher. I also had a progression of naniwa stones. After trial and error and experimentation, I gave away the Thurry and sold the Coti and settled in with my particular phig.
This is how I use it. I use a piece of les latneus coticule to build a slurry on my phig. It takes a bit of elbow grease and I build a good skim milk colored slurry on the phig using the coti. Then I use the dilution method down to just water for my final finish. For me, this provided the best compromise between keen and smooth, without fail. For me, it improved the keeness of what I could achieve with a coti and with a thuri. Used alone, it does not match either in smoothness. It's simply not a smooth finisher for me. I tried using combinations of coti and thuri slurry and what worked best was using the coti for slurry and then working that down for a final finish. I have a few DMTs which I've used to raise a slurry on the phig for honing and I've tried diluting that down for a final finish, and while it was keen, it wasn't anything I would call smooth. It is good for adding or restoring a touch of keeness to an already smooth razor with a few strokes using lather.
Attachment 90988
In the bowl is my Norton 4k/8k soaking in water. Top left is my trusty Double-sided 325/600 DMT. I use that to flatten all of my other stones, build slurry, and occasionally rough set a bevel. It took a few hours of work with the DMT to take my rough finish phig to the smooth beauty it is today. Beneath the DMT is a pair of 1k naniwas in light blue, a slightly darker blue 5k, yellow 8k, and a white 12k. In the middle are my two slurry stones. The top is a les latneus combo bout that I use to make slurry. Beneath that is a small piece of phig that would normally be used to make slurry, but both stones are too damn hard... You could spend 5 minutes rubbing with that small piece of phig and only have a very very thin skim milk colored slurry... it really is that hard. Beneath the razors is my c15k stone. I think it's either 18 or 24 inches long and 3 or 4 inches wide. It's wide enough that there is no need to X stroke on any of the razors I own. It's also long enough that I don't have to do nearly as many strokes.
Attachment 90989
Attachment 90990
Attachment 90991
Attachment 90992
The bottom left razor is one of my first straights and is my gold standard for smooth shaves... A Shumate. Above that is a uncommon 6/8 Genco. In the top right is a 6.8 Henry Dunner & Co that's going to get some MAAS tlc and the full progression. Beneath that is a Novelty Cutlery out of Canton Ohio. Bottom right is the 7/8 Big Pecker,err, Karl Becker out of Bremerhaven.
Attachment 90994
Here's pics of my c-nat. I have no idea as to what it's grit rating would be, but it's definitely finer than my 8k Norton. I haven't used it a bunch, just to touch up one of my razors. As you can see, it's not a remarkable stone looks wise, no discolorations or veins of darker or lighter rock. It's really hard and the slurry is like talc once it dries. In one pic, the stone is dry; it's wet in the other.
Nphocus... How did you get such a large C-nat?
I really love my C-nat, since I was lucky enough to get such an amazing whetstone. It is basically based on luck if we get one that is decent or truly superior. If this stone was quarried in the U.S. I guarantee it would probably cost at least around 80 bucks.
It's like paying a cheap price to have a chance at winning the whetstone lottery. :)
Do I have to use type when I use my Chinese 12k
Well, you are going to love this. I found the info in my paypal purchase history:
Business Name:
Marek Kopczynski (The recipient of this payment is Verified)
Email:
[email protected]
Payment For:
Invoice #0001
Business Contact Information
Customer Service Email: [email protected]
Amount sent:
-$75.00 USD
Fee amount:
$0.00 USD
Net amount:
-$75.00 USD
Date:
May 6, 2011
Time:
05:45:18 PDT
Status:
Completed
This is from our ebay correspondence:
Dear marek101,
15000 grit whetstone for fine honing. 2" x 6" x 16"
I guess I had the big stone cut down to roughly four 1 inch thick, 16 inch long, 3 inch wide slabs. 16"x3" is a lot of honing surface. He had the big stone listed on ebay for $50 +$25 for shipping.
I think tyler meant 'tape', and I feel that if you use tape to hone it, use tape to hone it all the way.
Now, here is my setup, and I tried to get some decent pics of my CNat. I hope you can see the lines I was talking about. Reminds me a a dragons tongue stone I've seen somewhere.
I went ahead and lapped both sides (top side 'again') and finished the sides up to an 8k polish. I polished it with 1k, 4k and 8k stones to help and try to smooth it out, and I think it did amazing. It feels so much smoother now that I've done that. I can really tell the difference.
Here's some pics:
Attachment 91007
Attachment 91008
Attachment 91009
Attachment 91011
I included the last pic to show Tyler that my DMT has some rust on it also, put away wet in a sealed container and it rusted in those spots. Don't try and remove it, just make sure it is dry when you put it away or they will get worse. (I know, whoops!).
As you can see the red lines run thru the stone perfectly on both sides, almost exact.
Now that it is relapped i'm going to give it another try. Mine is pretty narrow so I have to do X's. Slurry came up pretty quick before, but I tried to raise a slurry after lapping this time, using my C12k slurry stone, and it didn't do anything!!! What do you think about using the 8k to put some slurry on it? I don't want to hit it with the DMT again as I think that was just roughing up the surface.
Opinions??
Thanks you lot!! Great thread..
Mike
Cripes, forgot to say what is what... Starting from the left: King 800, King 1000, Norton combo, C12k and the DMT 325.. :)
I don't know if it's my pressure of the tape but the water displacement is not even along the blade so I didn't know if it was the tape or not
I am far from being a honemeister but when that wave is not even, the part that isn't "pushing" slurry or water is not getting honed. The blade may be warped or you may need to use an X stroke to hit all of the blade evenly, or you may need to apply pressure with your finger tip at that point to get the blade to lay flat on that part of the stone. Just my .02 cents. I hope someone with more experience will chime in.
If the blade has a smile, it won't be, if the blade has a warp or twist it won't be, if the tape is uneven, it won't be. I've tried the tape, and prefer without it, from beginning to end. On my special razors where spine wear is an issue for me, I use tape. If it's an old clunker that I just want to shave with, I don't. I have more clunkers than nice ones so I'm more used to not taping.
YMMV, but it's always opinion. As Glen has said: If I just finished restoring this razor, why would I want to hone it without tape and mess up a good finish? If you are not worried about it, do without. If it is an unwanted variable, do without.
Some swear by it and refuse to do a razor without it. Personal opinion has to prevail. :)
Mike
You can try doing a rolling X stroke to even out where the edge is missing. Or you can put your finger where it is missing (very very little pressure) so the edge makes contact known as "pushing an edge". The rolling X stroke is your best bet as you're more likely to have even honing until you can perfect pushing an edge, so I would try that first.
As hard as these rocks are, I'd be inclined to think that you'd wind up with 8k mud on top of your c-nat instead of raising a c-nat slurry. If you want slurry, just use the slurry stone but use one of the sharp edges instead of laying it flat on the stone. My slurry stone is worthless when laid flat on the stone. Turn it up on the edge and it'll slurry quite well.
I took the Gong that I finished on a light slurry and wasn't too pleased with back to the stone tonight, brought up a light slurry for 20 or so laps and finished on water. I felt a marked improvement in the shave. I will need to experiment a little more with slurry finishes as one attempt with slurry isn't much to go on.
The other factor I notice with these stones is that the shaves become more comfortable once you're a few shaves in as opposed to fresh off the stone, or perhaps more accurate to say I notice more of a jump in comfort after a few shaves off the Chinese hone than I see in my other stones. Proper use of a light slurry might be something I could use to remedy that.
Are you stropping or shaving straight off of the stone... Believe it or not... for me... stropping on leather 50 or 100 or 200 strokes will smooth out the harshness immensely. It won't suddenly make it a coticule finish, but it will take it a long way. I have noticed the same thing with some razors starting harsh and really coming into their own after a few shaves. I believe stropping is what "brings them in". I also strop on webbing to increase keeness and strop on leather to increase smoothness. I don't make a habit of shaving straight from a stone. I also find that a finish that may be so-so off of a stone will really bump up in keeness with a bit of stropping.
Pinklather taught me that you can't strop too much.
How I raise a slurry to get the best edge:
I have had this stone for quite a while now and have tried about every way to raise a slurry and this method gives me a much better edge than others I have tried.
Since these are hard and slippery stones, the natural instinct is to use a lot of pressure to raise the slurry quicker but the more pressure you exert to raise the slurry the larger the particles will be and can scratch up your stone.
I take 6-1K sandpaper, in this instance I am using the 6K side of a nail file out of convenience. I score the slurry stone so that it has fine scratches all over the side that will meet the stone in use. I use light pressure (the lighter the finer the particles) and slowly polish those scored scratches off the slurry stone. You can also score the surface of the stone if you like a thick slurry or you can dry the slurry stone and re-score the surface. This is just what I do with my stone and thought it may help others and remember these are natural stones so yours may vary but this method gives me the best results. You can see in the picture that the scratches on the slurry stone have polished out, depending on how much slurry you want you can rescore and repeat the process until the desired thickness is achieved and it keeps the stones surface scratch free and polished. Oh and remember to wipe off the slurry stone after scoring it so there is no unwanted particles.
I just got done honing a beautiful little 4/8 salamandar with some pretty impressive results. I got hair popping clean 1/4" off my arm (or leg as the case may be) and I took it to the shave den and gave it 100 on the felt and 200 + on the leather (lost count somewhere around 180 so I just kept going for a while).
It has a friggin edge on it alright. I had to really work it on the 1k and 4k to get rid of a double bevel and some micro chips on the edge, but it all came out good.
I had to do a lot of circles and X's on the 8k to get it to feel just right, but I was pleased with it and could have shaved with it off the 8k.
So, I took it to my newly lapped/chamfered C12k and tried to work up a slurry. Barely got sh*t from my slurry stone. I hadn't read the other posts here before I tried, so never tried the edge. I'll do that next time. I did get a little milk on it after about 10 minutes of trying to work some up. Had to keep wetting it as the slurry stone would just stick to it.
I finally gave that up and started to do X's. I did 8 sets of 25 X's, and between each set I would have to rewet and then did 20 lite circles. After every set, I examined the edge with my lighted loupe (30X) and it showed continuous improvement in scratch pattern. It was starting to mirror up pretty nicely, the best I've ever seen yet from one of my hone jobs.
Keep in mind I've never successfully gotten a good edge off this thing yet, I've been shaving off the 8k for a couple of weeks. I tried to keep the pressure really light and consistent, and I think I did a pretty good job. After @ 200 X's and a final HHT (which popped that sucker before I even knew what happened) I took it to the felt and leather. 100 felt 200 leather and I tested the edge again. Hair literally fell to the floor in bunches. I was kind of shocked at the ease with which it caught hair and popped them off my leg.
So, in a couple of hours will be the real test. All indications are it will be the sharpest razor I ever honed. And I take back what I said about mine being closer to 8k than 12k. Using the other side of the stone that had never been lapped before, it was like silk and the razor just glided across it. I really could not feel any grit or grab to it. It just pushed the water off like it was ice.
I'm pretty pumped to give it a shot!! I'll update when I can!
M
I'm stropping on latigo before the shave but even with that it seems to take a few shaves to settle in.
I'll give roughing the stone up a little a shot, sounds like it will give me more control over the slurry.
I'm psyched to hear about your results mj. Your stone's characteristics sound a lot like how mine acts. Hard as hell and smooth as glass.
I honing how I loathe I right now u really know how to press my buttons
Taking a break from honing and thought that i'd check in. I know that we are supposed to use synthetics with a known grit progression up to the PHIG but this thread lit a fire under my ass to try something I've been meaning to try for a while. I have a second useable PHIG and am honing from bevel set through finish using oil and natural stones. I've never used oil on a PHIG and am eager to try it out. I've got the bevel set and still have a lot of work ahead of me. I'll hopefully report back tomorrow after the shave to tell you how it went and post pics.
I have wondered about using oils myself so I will be very interested on the water to oil comparison results you get. I know a trick that substitutes the oil for stones that work well with oils, someone told me to add just a drop of dish soap to the water/slurry. I guess it's supposed to be better if you plan on using water on the stone in the future because once you use oil on a stone I read there is no going back. Now you got me thinking.
I've not tried oil but my smaller Chinese stone works a treat as a touch up hone with a little lather. I might give oil a try as I don't imagine it would penetrate far into the stone, if at all.
Attachment 91042
I recently tried lapping the other side of my bigger stone, but it didn't work out too well. There's still enough length away from the chip to try the edge off it but it's not ideal.
Attachment 91043
There's a coticule slurry stone waiting for me at the post office and I think I'll have to give the above mentioned coticule slurry on Chinese stone method a try.
I believe that stones work better when they are smoother. I think it lends to the hardness and provides a better finished product... if you think about it, lapping a stone to a high finish provides a much more consistent mirror-like surface... the same type of mirror-like surface that you are trying to impart to the edge of your razor.