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Hello All,
Im about too embark on my straight razor journey. I just purchased a Red Imp 132 case, as well as a 133. Im trying to stay away from spending $200 and up for a perfect stone, and I found a la verte thats a bit smaller than reccomended I think? Its 35mm x about 130mm. I found it for a great price. My question is, would it be too narrow, especially considering I'm just starting out.?
Chef, 'Grats on taking the plunge. The little Imp will be a nice razor. 'Good US wedge, which can be really nice to learn with. Keep track of that square point or it'll tutor you. If this makes for your first razor, I would strongly recommend not learning to hone at the same time as you are learning the shave. I DID make that mistake, and there's a reason I'm called pinklather. When learning the shave, you need very good edges. It'll be a while, when learning to hone before your edges are that good. In the mean time, it can be called suffering. Almost everyone will tell you to get a pro quality edge. They're not shilling for money - they don't get any. The pro that does it is making less than minimum wage. They say it 'cause it'll make your learning experience ALOT more enjoyable. If the Imp is shave ready, or not requiring restorative grinding before honing, there are several ways to get free honing. The Coti boys - used to be coticule.be, now artisanshaving.something used to offer free honing. Members reported wonderful edges coming back from Bart.
On stones, the coti usually takes a fair amount more skill to get satisfying results than any synthetic. Some guys get it right away. I didn't get decent coti edges until trying them on over 100 blades. (I honed blade #302 in the last hour). I got shaveable edges, but hardly ones I'd want to live with day in and day out. I'd strongly advocate starting w/ synthetics (norton or Nani). If I recall, the La Verte is a soft stone, which will have issues of its own w/ auto-slurry - the blade stroke raising slurry from the soft surface. (Coti guys - pls. jump in & correct if I'm wrong here). Maybe 'cause of my own suffering, I feel strongly about starting out w/ good edges that are strong on the smoothness attribute. If that imp is in decent shape, I'll hone for just the cost of the bubble mailer and postage. PM me if you'd like.
Above all, enjoy your learning - have fun at it!
It is a bit narrow but you wouldn't have a problem honing a razor on it.
A bit of time spent on it and you'll learn to use it just fine.
Verte coticules produce some really good edges also.
I'm more looking to have a stone that will help me maintain a very sharp, smooth edge, as opposed to actually hone, and set bevels, etc. At least for the time being. I was just hoping to prolong the time in between having to send my razors out..I have a very coarse beard, and even professionally honed shave ready razors have produced some tugging the few times I've used them. Jarrod @ superiorshave suggested that aside.........ah. heck,here's his email response to me:........" hiQuote:
Originally Posted by pinklather
It is always possible that a beard's coarseness combined with the thicker angle of incidence of a straight razor's bevels would mean that you're better off using a "shavette" type razor, or the Feather Artist Club system, because these will both tug less (but never have as polished of bevels).
However, I would try to find a "la verte" or "la veinette" coticule, these are the sharpest ones to me for sure, with the verte being my preference between the two. Unfortunately we only have small bouts and more expensive large rectangles; we are all at the mercy of what is coming out of the ground." So do you guys think that'll do?
Thanks for your help,
Basil ..my name is Basil also
Most of my Vertes have been really hard - the one that was softer didn't auto-slurry. The hard ones were slower than other stones but not ridiculously so. The softer one was a bit faster in all regards and none of them were hard to figure out. All produced wickedly keen edges that were very comfy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chefbaze
If that is your goal then the size that you mentioned should work fine. My "go to" touch up stone is a 1x5 inch Escher which translates to about 25mm x 120mm. Works great in the hand and would be easy to use as "travel stone" if you got something bigger in the future.
I just picked up a coticule and I really like the edge it produces. I've tried razors finished on several different stones (including an Escher), and the coticule edge is my favorite so far. You shouldn't have any trouble using a coti to do touch ups. Full-blown honing on one is a different matter altogether, but it would be really simple to keep a pro-honed razor shave-ready with a coti that size.
Chef, I'm glad to hear some coti guys weighing in. There's a preference component that comes into play, where some guys skin/beard and honing skills just click w/ the coti. I'm not really one of them, but know there's alot of very happy coti users. 'Glad they're posting here.
You might want to PM Tylerbrycen about having the proverbial 'beard of steel'. When he sent his first blade for honing, it looked like a cross-cut saw blade. I sent him one from my rotation and when it came back after about a week's worth of shaves, the dents in the edge had started. I mention this 'cause I've known guys whose beards just tear up an edge. You might ask Tyler about the paper stropping technique - how it works for him. Weekly touch ups won't wear that much steel, but the paper will wear less.
'Glad the guys are responding and most likely will be very helpful if you do the coti. I'm grateful for each one that helps.
When I was learning I found my smaller hones (barber hone sized) harder to use. Until you have the muscle memory it can be hard keeping the blade flat on narrower stones. That is not to say this will be the same for you, but that was my experience.
For what it's worth I now have a La Verte in my stable that is only 23mm wide, and it does a great job. Especially on warped and smiling blades. If it is for a great price I say grab it. If you have trouble you can always put it away until you get more practice, or sell it and make a few bucks. It is always easy to sell coticules.
Thanks to everyone for all your help. I guess as with anything else, the only way to know for sure is to try out different methods , stones etc. I've been in the beginning stages of wetshaving for 3 months now with a DE, so while it might be AD, RAD,SCAD, and such, I think its more trying everything to see what works for me, I'm sure ill settle into my preferences. I've already gotten rid of about 11 soaps and creams and settled on my goto 3. Same with blades, brushes etc..now its onto seeing what straight razor doodads work for me. So far I've got an NOS Red Imp 133 that I got today, and a hollow Case Imp 132, good start I think.http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthr...p-!?highlight= I guess it can't hurt to buy this 35mm verte coticule, there's also a veinette I'm looking at, similar dimensions. I just don't want to destroy my blades, which is why I'm asking about shapes and sizes..
Also, I'm sure there are coarser beards than mine, but I do know that I used to change mach3 and sensor carts every shave or id get tugging and ingrowns, same with DE blades(feathers)
I'll say it as Jarrod says "the more time you spend trying to pick the perfect stone, the less time you have learning to hone and getting great shaves", or something like that. Just order you a coticule and start honing it, if you mess it up it's not the end of the world, and if you can't fix it I am sure someone would be more than happy to fix it for you.
Mess up the blade or the stone? I'm. More worried about the bladeQuote:
Originally Posted by matt789
Is it better to get a better stone such as a la verte or la veinette, which were the types recommended to me by jarrod, even though I can only afford the smaller stones, or get a proper sized rectangular stone that's cheaper..?Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion
Any good coticule will do the job. Couple of members sell them, or get one straight from the quarry Ardennes Coticule - natural sharpening stones from Vielsalm Belgium. - Home . Rectangular ones are a bit more exspensive than the bouts but no better. Get a rubbing stone with it if you can.
I would say buy the biggest rectangle you can. It's not necessary that it be a rectangle though, you could get a nice big bout for the same price as a smaller rectangle one, and like legion said you can always sell it if you don't like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chefbaze
My opinion is that if a person has more trouble getting a good edge from a coticule than a synthetic, it is probably the fault of the coticule. Not a fault actually, but either the coticule is of such a hard variety that the honer loses patience or the stone isn't flat. I have some coticules that are more like translucent arkansas stones in the slowness in cutting. On the bright side, these coticules will almost last forever. Personally, I don't have the patience to set an edge using one of these slow stones but instead just use them for finishing up or polishing an edge. I use the fast cutting coticules to set an edge.
Unfortunately, since coticules have gotten so expensive, many honers on a budget never get to find out how good the best coticules can be as they are limited to one or two stones. And unfortunately, unless someone dies, the best coticules are almost NEVER the ones that get sold. I've sold several coticules on Ebay in the past, but they were never my best stones. For that reason it is often safer to buy from someone like superior shave that has too many stones to keep them all. Some of them just HAVE to be good! Also, some of the best coticules on Ebay and in antique stores can be found in wooden coffin cases as many of the very good old stones were appreciated and protected.
Your a brave guy for starting with coticules as your chosen stone. I'm saying this because mine is a temperamental bugger, but learn how to treat her and she'll reward you with great edges(seriously, if your too heavy (pressure) you won't get anywhere. a light touch and your there baby ;) ).
I would advise buying from a Vendor who tests they're coticules and can give you an idea of how it performs. La verte's are great finishers but you'll eventually try the one stone honing and it'll take a little longer with one of them, they're on the slow side of the spectrum. I would prefer a verdict from a vendor on the characteristics rather than a particular vein.
If you talk to a supplier, tell them what you want and most will do what they can to help you, Rectangles are dearer, I think? so if you wanted a bout, ask them to try find you one as close to a rectangle as you can get and one with as little a slant as possible (its preference, but I got rid of my slants as I prefer flat hones) and for beginners it may be easier to hone.
I was always wonder when people talk about the cost of coticules, coticules are traditionally to be handheld hones (they were popular barbers hones) so any huge $200 stone won't be comfortable hand honing. There is no difference between standard and select grade coticules, aesthetic characteristics and veins seem to dictate select and standard grade coticules (Correct me if I'm wrong on this).
I would strongly recommend starting with a Norton 4000/8000 rather than a coticule. It's easier to learn on, and will give more consistent results as you learn.
Since your main purpose is keeping a good edge "good", I think a coticule is a great idea. Buy whatever you can afford. I would say, as someone who found a very affordable coticule, and promptly sold my synthetics, that learning to hone on a coticule as a new guy is tough. I've been fighting with mine for 5 months and haven't mastered it. But as a way to keep an already sharp edge in good condition it oughta work out well. If you decide you want to try honing from start to finish, you'll be glad you bought a smaller coticule, so you can buy a big synthetic. For comparisons sake, I'll tell you, the new guy that bought my synthetics is already selling "shave ready" razors on Ebay, and stones that will put a "fantastic" edge on your razor...While I'm at 8 months in, and couldn't tell you for sure what a "fantastic" edge even looks like. Although, thanks to professional honers, I do get to shave with one.
I started on a coticule as well as many others. They aren't rocket science. Yes a Norton would probably be easier but I didn't want a synthetic hone, I liked the idea of a natural stone and being able to go from start to finish on one stone.
If your looking to just maintain your edge, buy you a Franz Swaty barbers hone, this will keep it in shaving condition for a long time.
Synthetics are easier for fully honing a razor, but any good finishing stone will be able to keep a razor sharp for a long time. I say get the coticule. I think you'll like it. You can always buy a Norton 4/8 or a Naniwa 3/8 later if you decide you want to start learning how to hone. Learning honing strokes on a higher grit stone will help when you want to move down to the coarser stones, too.
I think it's a little small for a "starter" hone. 35mm width will need a lot of downward travel over a short stroke in order to hone the whole blade with an x stroke. You will have 1/2 or less of the razor on the hone at all times, especially at the end of the x. It is hard to keep a blade flat on a hone this size, and a see-saw motion can result. My coticle is 150x40 verte and I have had mixed results, partly because of its small size
Michael
Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the helpful responses. This its the coticule, I ended up buying. Its about 225mm X 34mm.
I spoke to him, and he said he'd bet his life, that its a La Veinette. And if he has to chose for himself, this would be the one, in my price range, and need. He was berry helpful to deal with as are all of you. He also has a video on youtube about honing with coticule bouts, and he uses the coticule I just bought in the video. Its at the 2:25 counter mark...http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop...uqEt8OZo&gl=US
Attachment 90907
Nice and none of your attachments work.
Yes the newspaper trick is a remarkable saver to a razors edge in my opinion it keeps me from having to hone a lot more then I should. It's basically like stropping just put it on the edge of the door and strop on the the newspaper
I just tried them on my computer and they seem to work fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by matt789
Here. Ill try again
The 2:25 mark shows the coticule I bought...http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop...uqEt8OZo&gl=US
Attachment 90908
I didn't realise it tapered off to a point, might make it a bit more difficult. Seems like its got a bit of BBW mixed in? if it does I would say thats an advantage. My coticule dries up very quickly, don't know why but, it just does, and my BBW keeps water like a camel (you'll find out if you do one stone hone with it, letting it go dry is a big no no) less slurry dulling, but when I finish it finishes better letting the water dry up a bit... see what I mean about being temperamental?
well done on your purchase its a very nice looker ;)
Being that its so long ( over 220mm), can't I cut it down before it tapers, so that its more of a rectanular shape, and use the end bit as a slurry stone?Quote:
Originally Posted by justalex
Attachment 90909
I would not worry about cutting it down (not sure what tools you would need to do that properly), it should work fine as is. If you don't want to use the whole stone then just stop your stroke early.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chefbaze
Aha! That makes sense..I was just thinking that it would wear the stone down unevenly, no? Again I'm a noob, so I don't know much about this stuffQuote:
Originally Posted by heavydutysg135
Thanks for your help
Again, I would not worry about that. Coticules are pretty hard and wear very slowly compared to synthetic stones in my experience. The wear would be somewhat uneven regardless because you would presumably be doing an X pattern stroke and not honing on all parts of the stone for the same length of time anyway. A periodic lapping with a straight lapping plate larger than the coticule will even it right up if you hone enough razors to need it. If you already had the right tools and experience to cut you could certainly do so (at risk of damaging the stone), but if it was me I would just go the easy route and leave it as is and buy a slurry stone separately (which should be pretty inexpensive).Quote:
Originally Posted by Chefbaze
I don't think you can say coticules are harder than synthetics in any sense. Coticules are easy to use if you use them without slurry after say a 6 or 8K hone. As soon as you start messing with a slurry that changes, the thicker the slurry the faster it removers metal and the coarser it will become.
A coticule may be harder than a Norton but certainly softer than e.g. a Shapton.
If you are considering a coticule: get a vintage one or a new one from a reputable vendor and start using it without slurry. As soon as you have the feel for it try raising a slurry and experiment with a practice razor.
It's all here: Belgian Hones - Straight Razor Place Wiki
