what grit, or after what natural hone can you no longer see scratches without magnification?
not sure if this should be in advanced, but it seemed like something experienced people would have noticed and others might not.
what grit, or after what natural hone can you no longer see scratches without magnification?
not sure if this should be in advanced, but it seemed like something experienced people would have noticed and others might not.
IMHO about 8K
A radio shack magnifier/microscope is about as affordable as you can get & you can see what is going on at the edge...the naked eye can't see this. I say this because you can have a beautifully mirrored polish to 30K on the razor, but if the bevel isn't right, it doesn't matter.
Without Magnification????
Guess that would depend on your closeup eyesight :rofl2: for me about 1k :) now if I had longer arms it might be higher :p
I love that expression "I don't need reading glasses, I just need longer arms"
Depends on the eye, but for me 1k scratches are invisible.
Depends on the hone, too. Not all hones at (insert whatever number)k have the same types of patterns.
oh I didnt mean that, I have a loupe I was just curious when most people stop noticing them. Since I have better than 20/20 I didn't think about bad eyesight.Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter74743
I too was blessed with good eyesight. What magnification is your loupe? When I was learning to hone I "thought" a loupe from Hobby Lobby was the answer to my wanting to see scratch marks as well. During a private transaction/trade on some gun parts, member Sicboater sent me one of the cheap magnifier/microscopes from Radio Shack as a freebie. I had no clue how much a so called 60-100x (I really doubt it magnifies that much, but it's what it claims) microscope with a light could help my learning curve. This along with invaluable information provided from veteran honers is what actually taught me the "ropes".
Nothing beats sitting down with someone well versed in the stones though...
I have a 10x-18mm otto frei triplet. I have a razor honed by lynn and one honed by another senior member and i can see the scratch pattern on those with it.
the interesting thing for me when I started using a loupe 40x(thanks Glen) is that I learned what the scratch pattern for my stones was at each grit. even at 16K Shapton I still can see scratches. just more refined and smaller. The trick now is to use this info when honing to it's benifit. I use much less finishing strokes now as with a 16K it only gets so "good" after that I use a few CrOx passes. My edges are better then they ever were prior to the loupe. Prior to it was trial and error. Now 9/10 times I "hit" the edge I am looking for.
If the residual scratches start to bother me, I quit looking.
I can't see scratches from a 1k without some kind of magnification. I had a Hobby Lobby loupe (16x, i think) and it's worthless. I bought the same microscope that Shooter74743 has, and it helps a lot. At max magnification, you can really see what's going on. I use it to check that the bevel looks the same across the blade. Once it does, I do a few finishing strokes on that particular stone and then move up.
So i honed up a razor today, I went Norton 1k->BBW->Coticule->Lynn Melynlynn->.5CrOx and I checked the scratch pattern between stones. The most obvious change was from the 1k to the BBW, going from very pronounced scratches to much finer scratches. From the BBW to the Coticule there was a noticeable difference but not nearly as significant as from 1k to BBW. I could still see scratches without the loupe after the Coticule tho they were very very hard to see, and I couldn't see anything coming off the LM, and just a shinnyhaze after the pasted strop. I guess this is very subjective since I my eyes are particularly good with fine detail.
Interesting thread, with interesting answers.
Of course it is impossible to answer the question correctly, since different stones with same grit ratings will produce different results in regard to the polish.
I think the degree of polish (i.e peak to valley height, or roughness of surface) is a function of the steel used, type of abrasive, binder of abrasive and other things.
This being said, there are a couple of stones that I can say produce a mirror without scratches visible to the naked eye.
These are Naniwa SS8 and 10k, Shapton 16k and 30k, Lapping Film 1µm and sometimes even 3µm. Anything else I tried so far produces scratches that I can make out with the naked eye and a decent light source.
I tilt the blade and when I get the angle right I can see the scratches. The 16k and 30k do produce scratches, but these are in fact too faint to make out with the naked eye
This thread is interesting to me, since I am a foreigner to the "american way" of honing. There are a lot of stones out there that are said to produce a super high mirror polish.
I tried some of them, like Akatsuki 8k, Chosera 5k and 10k etc. and was stunned by the scratch pattern they produced. It seems to me in Germany we put a lot more emphasis on the polish of a bevel.
Although this of course will not guarantee a good shave at all!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesslemming
What do you consider the american way of honing? whats different about the german way?
A LOT of the forum members are from outside of the US, it seems more like SRP way of honing would be what you mean.
Ah, that came out wrong, I guess. I don't think there are actually two ways of honing, but of course hundreds.
And there is no such thing as one american, and one german way, or even one SRP way.
But I think that people I met on german forums are much more concearned with things like HHT and the polish (ie. appeal) of the bevel than people over at SRP and B&B. That's what I wanted to say :)
At 52, I can hardly see the edge of the blade! :D
Actually, I am nearsighted so without my glasses I can still see up close pretty well.
1k and even 4k is satin rather than a mirror to my naked eyes
8k is scratch free mirror but visible at 10x or more
12k is scratch free even on my 20x loupe
Of course we know that there are scratches being made at any grit, you just need a really big SEM microscope to see them.
:shrug:
I am just going to say this bluntly, so don't take it wrong, I just don't feel like trying to be PC about it on my first cup of coffee :)
If you begin honing to polish the the bevel to a "Mirror Finish" and not to achieve comfort on your face, you are going to be sorely disappointed in straight razor shaving :p
Many natural stones cannot ever attain a mirror finish, and when you start pushing edges too far with the high end synthetics to mirror the bevel you stand a very good chance of making the edge fragile and harsh...
Performance first, Looks second, just a thought :)
Plus as soon as you strop, that pretty bevel is scratched up anyway ..
I wear glasses but I'm near sided as it is. I can see a scratch pattern with the naked eye up to about 12k in good lighting, anything after that I can see with a loupe.
Really some of you can't see scratch patterns off a 1k? To me that's when you need glasses lol.
This is why we use magnification to aid in seeing a bevel set & follow thru with the pre-polishers & polishers. If a proper light touch is used towards the end of honing on a particular stone, you would be surprised at how polished a blade will become at the lower grits. Maybe you just have better eyes than those who have been at this a while.
That's kinda why I asked at first. I wasn't really sure if I should still see scratches free a certain point or if Iwas using too much pressure or if I hadn't really removed the scratches from the previous hone. I didn't really take into account that after bevel setting I'm going to a BBw/coti and how much they can vary. All I know is my scratches disappear between the coti and LM, could(most likely) be entirely because I'm new to honing razors.Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter74743
For me, till you get to about 0.1 micron I can see scratches with my eye because I look at the reflection of the bevel. Till it gets to be a diamond white reflection it is not ready to use!:)
Later,
Richard
I just took a look and I can see scratches on all my bevels. I don't really know what that means - maybe I just have excellent eyes. I do love my carrots, after all.
I'll just reiterate what Glen said - I just go for the best edge I can get off the hones that I have. I don't care about the aesthetics (unless they are indicative of a bigger issue that needs to be addressed) - the only thing that matters to me is the shave.
James.
Comfort is above all else, the most important thing to me, I was just kinda curious if i should be able to see what I saw.
You sir are sooo right! The reason we look at the bevel with magnification is to look at the actual cutting edge. The cutting edge should be even and uniform, not look like a cross-cut saw & full of micro-chips. As you progress with finer stones, the cutting edge should be getting more and more "fine toothed". The actual sides of the cutting edge and spine "polish" is really just not important to a shave. Sure, it may look pretty...but who cares if the shave isn't smooth, thus the cutting edge is more than likely full of "teeth" otherwise known as micro-chips. You just can't see this with the naked eye.Quote:
Originally Posted by justinA
I have noticed that with circular strokes the scratches tend to cancel out each other by the over-running side swiping action, this is the fastest (maybe not the best) stroke to refine a blade. Circular strokes are hard to see and under magification they look fuzzy. Straight regular strokes are easier to see in the 1k for me without glasses or help, and god knows at 60yrs I need all the help I can get.. The quality and size of the scratches on the flat of the bevel mean nothing unless they lead directly up to the cutting edge, beyond that shiny or dull it is all for show as the fellows above so adroitly noted. Alx
Well here is a few pennies into the info pool. Lighting and angles will help with seeing scratches. I can see the working scratches of Green CrOx. As for anyone that stumbles here for trying to learn for polishing, take it where you want it, go eat dinner or something, return and look at it at half arms length. Step back, let the detail eyes close and see the big picture. Personally, best most consistent finish I have obtained is from a progression of lowering pressures, making precise lengthwise passes. A perfect mirror bevel wont make or break the cut, or shave as it were.