Will some razors just not sharpen without the use of tape?

That's it. That's my question. Backstory involved a quarter hollow W&B, a near nervous breakdown, loss of all confidence in my ability to learn honing, several hours of checking and re-checking everything I was doing over the course of several weeks, a "please help me" post, several PM's and skype sessions, and a consideration of transitioning totally to DE shaving. 3 layers of tape, and 20 minutes later=shaving sharp. I know some people are fundamentally against the use of tape. So that made me wonder. Do even the tape haters have to use it sometimes? I guess I should tell you I'm kind of a purist I guess. I like natural stones, and not taping razors. But what works, works. :hmmm:

I always use tape, generally three layers. My usage of it is to protect the spine and limit bevel height.

Having said that, my guess is that a razor that will sharpen with three layers of tape will get sharp without it.

Were people using tape 100 years ago to sharpen these same razors that trigger all these tape threads?

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Originally Posted by SixNipples

Were people using tape 100 years ago to sharpen these same razors that trigger all these tape threads?

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100 years ago, straight razors were strictly utilitarian objects that were still being mass produced by many manufacturers. So the answer to the question is no.

Does this razor have a lot of hone wear?

I wouldn't worry about the tape/no-tape argument. Find what works for you and gives you comfortable shaves, and do it.

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Originally Posted by Theseus

100 years ago, straight razors were strictly utilitarian objects that were still being mass produced by many manufacturers. So the answer to the question is no.

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Are we honing our razors to be sharper than the original users would have?

Not trying to be annoying with my questions, so I hope that's not how they are coming across.

OK once again :)

If 10 cents worth of electrical tape will fix what was done wrong 100 years ago without having to remove a ton of steel to even it all back up, and have a 1/8-1/4 inch thick bevel then why are you even asking ???
Now if you really want to fix the razor then you can do what they did "Back in the Day" and have it re-ground..


And Yes we do take things to a different level or at least some do,, I can't even count the numbers of razors I have honed that have never had a bevel set on parts of the blade..

Many of the older razor's seem to have softer spines too that allows un-even wear to form even faster than a newer Hollow grind..

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

OK once again :)

If 10 cents worth of electrical tape will fix what was done wrong 100 years ago without having to remove a ton of steel to even it all back up, and have a 1/8-1/4 inch thick bevel then why are you even asking ???
Now if you really want to fix the razor then you can do what they did "Back in the Day" and have it re-ground..


And Yes we do take things to a different level or at least some do,, I can't even count the numbers of razors I have honed that have never had a bevel set on parts of the blade..

Many of the older razor's seem to have softer spines too that allows un-even wear to form even faster than a newer Hollow grind..

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Can you explain a little more on what you mean?

Seems my thread got hijacked almost right out the gate. Ace, I'd be willing to put money on this razor going from almost sharp, to a wire edge, and back again, about as many times as you care to try, without the use of tape. But, I've certainly been wrong before. Unfortunately, we can't put it to the test. Anyhow, I'll try again.

To those who would classify themselves as people who do not use tape: Are there some razors that you come across, that forces the use of tape?

Gssixgun, you answered the question by saying when a razor got to that point back in the day, it'd be reground. So that would mean, for us who won't be doing any re-grinding, the answer is yes. Some razors a person will find, have no alternative but to be taped, or honed for something over 20 hours....as that's currently my soft estimate on hours spent on this razor. Granted, I'm new. But magic marker says my stroke is perfectly perfect....every time.

Sixnipples: I don't think this thread oughta get lumped in with "all these tape threads", as it doesn't really have anything to do with the classic reasons of saving the spine from hone wear, or honing a big wedge razor. Utility and efficiency being my main interest. It's not often discussed that a person should check the width of the spine against the width of the blade, when examining their razor before beginning to hone. In fact, the thread I found it in came from 2009. But whatever...Sorry for the dastardly tape thread again. :deadhorse:

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

Sixnipples: I don't think this thread oughta get lumped in with "all these tape threads", as it doesn't really have anything to do with the classic reasons of saving the spine from hone wear, or honing a big wedge razor. Utility and efficiency being my main interest. It's not often discussed that a person should check the width of the spine against the width of the blade, when examining their razor before beginning to hone. In fact, the thread I found it in came from 2009. But whatever...Sorry for the dastardly tape thread again. :deadhorse:

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Not my intention to dismiss your tape thread. I am new as well, and was just looking for clarification on what we are doing to these razors today vs. what the guys were doing in the old days.

Oh it's cool of course. I thought I'd gotten advice from you before in fact. lol. I guess if it gets some answers out there to the people, then the thread has purpose y'know? The answer to my question would be yes it seems. I think Gssixgun can effectively speak on behalf of the majority. lol. Since many of us learned from him and others like him. But I was hoping to enlighten some people about other possible reasons a razor might not be getting sharp for you. I'm trying to get someone to say, "Yes, sometimes, on rare occassions, it IS the razor." lol.

Now I'll wait for somebody to point out there's no way I should have spent twenty hours on one razor without considering the use of tape. :beer2:

I hope I never gave you honing advice ...haven't done any yet!

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

I'm trying to get someone to say, "Yes, sometimes, on rare occassions, it IS the razor." lol.

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It is the geometry of the razor but gssixgun already explained that.
If the razor needs regrinding & you are attempting to hone it guess who's compensating for the regrind with 20 hours of honing ?

Ok, I know it's still my responsibility to analyze the razor, and decide how best to hone it. And so, it is me who is at fault for my own suffering here. But if there were some ways to ID a razor in need of tape from the start it'd be cool to know. For this one, I had to keep reaching a frayed edge, as the steel was just getting abraded at such an angle to make a wispy little bevel, that seemed sharp on a TPT. Rough, but sharp. I did this hundred times probably. lol. Kill the edge, hone to wire edge, kill the edge, hone to wire...on and on and on. Sirstropalot suggested tape, and voila...Success. If there was another way besides knowing the 1:4 ratio, that a person could use from the start, it would be nice. Alas, this must just be an experience thing. I know for sure, from now on, the second I get a wire edge, I'll add 2 tapes, and start over. I think that's helpful for people. Maybe not. lol.

First you have to take the lump group of "razors" away there are differences here..

Newer Hollow grinds are either good, bad, or honed wrong..


I still frimly believe that the older heavy grinds have softer spines on them which create the uneven/heavy hone wear easier (no proof either way yet)

You basically have 4 choices with YOUR razor

Re-grind it
Hone the crap out of it
Add tape or some type of spine clip
Freehand it like a knife

That's it end of story, you can debate it till you are blue in the face but take yer medicine a decide which one of those four you want to do...

Want a real trick????

Use 3 layers of tape, and do about 20 x strokes per side on the 1k and see what you have before you commit to anything... use a magic marker for even more info

I have honed a few razors that cannot handle an edge over 8K due to the spine wear, the original geometry was gone and without one or even two layers of tape I couldn't take the edge any further (meaning finer "grit" hones) without it being too fragile. Some razors simply cannot be honed as the HT is blown by someone who "restored" it on a buffer and got it too hot or it had a bad HT from the beginning. Please show a pic of the razor in question as it will help out troubleshooting a whole lot.
Scott

These things are always a pain. Especially when the spine has had a lot of wear and it is uneven and in most cases does not match the opposite side. If you just use one layer of tape the wear will still be reflected in the bevel and edge, so you really don't gain anything. By going to 3 layers of tape you basically are creating a new or mini-bevel which can then produce a more consistent edge for shaving.

In may cases on these, I'll start at a 220 grit and do circles to try to get the razor to lay as flat against the stone as possible. Then I will go to the 1K and regular stone progression using a rolling X pattern and get it there.

This can be problematic on most restorations that have not been re-ground because the wear that was on the spine comes back unless you layer up with tape.

Have fun.

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

Will some razors just not sharpen without the use of tape?

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No. Ignore the razor and the tape for a moment and remember that they are only items - the more telling question is whether *you* cannot sharpen certain razors without the use of tape; and to that question I don't know the answer :) However, assuming the perfect honemeister, if a razor can be sharpened at all, it can be sharpened without tape

edit: oops I am late to the party as usual. I guess the following is sort of what I am suggesting

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

Alas, this must just be an experience thing.

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Originally Posted by SixNipples

Were people using tape 100 years ago to sharpen these same razors that trigger all these tape threads?

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Probably not, but then again, the razors were probably much newer back then, not the worn down nubs that many of us are using tape on, and its highly likely that back then, many people weren't getting the same quality of shaves as we are now (then again, maybe they were :)

Tape is invaluable for blades that, without tape, would leave a huge bevel, which is very difficult to get a fine shaving edge on. Its much easier when working with a smaller bevel, so we know exactly what part of the blade is contacting the stone.

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

That's it. That's my question.

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Yes. That's my answer :)

I've had few old sheffield razors with spine so soft that it was impossible to set a bevel. Clearly you have to abrade the edge faster than the spine if you want a razor to get sharp. It's really a matter of simple geometry. Electrical tape is not the only way to fix that, but it's the easiest.

But this is only a very small percentage of razors. From my statistics probably around 1%-2%.

To be honest I don't think that people back in the day actually cared about the razors in the same way we do today.

In any event, I have not had any direct experience with what you are asking. The only thing taping a spine really does at the edge is increase the angle (assuming any effects of the tape on the spine and hone nexus are negligible). So I suppose your question boils down to: are there razors that will not get sharp without increasing the bevel angle?

I think the answer would be "yes" to that. After all, razors have a geometry for a reason - the spine width to razor width ratio directly effects the bevel angle and I imagine that there is an optimal range for these angles - I believe there has been some work done in measuring these angles by numerous people. Two that immediately spring to mind are Randydance (I think) and mparker72 (also, I think). It may even be in the wiki somewhere.

But given tape has such a trivial effect on the razor angle, if you have a razor that seems to be effected by it that razor must really be operating at the margins, and I would suspect at the lower margin (flatter than the ideal range).

I guess that's kind of the theory from my perspective. However, there could be other things going on - multiple bevels being the first thing that pops into my mind: previous owner used tape, you've been trying to hone away at a flatter angle to what they did. Add 3 layers of tape - suddenly all is well? You said you have looked into it in detail, so that is probably not the case.

James.

2.

There's a very detailed (and I might add, very smart) page over at Belgium Coticule dedicated to honing wedge razors

http://www.coticule.be/wedges.html

in which the creation of secondary bevels using tape is strongly endorsed. It even offers up an .xml file where you can calculate bevel angle upon inputting blade and spine width. I had the same problem as you honing a Greaves full wedge with a massive bevel. 3 layers of electrical tape and 50 passes on a Naniwa 1K later, I was popping arm hair like corn.

I have never needed to use tape on honing a razor but I have had several that I needed to free hand. In some of those cases tape may have helped but in those with a warped or uneven edge, which was most of them, the tape wouldn't have made the difference as they still would have to be free handed or completely reground.

I ran across this thread and have a quick question about using multiple layers of tape. I always use one layer, but had a razor that I was having a devil of a time getting a good bevel on. I just tried using three layers and the bevel looks really nice off the 1K. I'm ready to move on to 4K/8K progression. Do I continue to use three layers? Remove one? Two?

Can anyone explain to me how it is possible that the steel of the spine is softer than the steel on the cutting end of the the blade unless you have a frameback.

As soon as you start using tape you will always have to use tape and the same number of layers. I never use tape so when I hone a wedge I take my time. You will get there eventually.

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Originally Posted by blitzt

I ran across this thread and have a quick question about using multiple layers of tape. I always use one layer, but had a razor that I was having a devil of a time getting a good bevel on. I just tried using three layers and the bevel looks really nice off the 1K. I'm ready to move on to 4K/8K progression. Do I continue to use three layers? Remove one? Two?

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I always use three layers. If you start with three, stay with at least three layers.