On top of the world after honing with my verte coticule, hoping for good shave.

I brought down a few razors to my workbench tonight. The first one I picked up was the "PICK" razor. I set the bevel on norton 1k. Next I decided to put it on the coticule, which I never really had success with. I've improved a lot since the last time I used this stone, and I just made it perfectly flat last night, so I decided on a whim to use it.
My plan was to take it really slow and dilute slowly, then finish on water. I made a milky/creamy slurry with just a short rubbing with the slurry stone. Then I did sets of ten strokes, diluting with two drops of water after each one. I was very careful to use perfect form, making sure to get full contact on each honing stroke and not tilt the blade. I did ten sets this way. Then I diluted to very light misty slurry and rinsed the blade and did ten strokes. Finally I cleaned the blade and stone with water and wiped clean, changed the tape and re-wet the stone. Then I did three sets of 10 strokes, wiping the stone and rewetting in between. This revealed a brilliant polish and a tight yet hazy scratch pattern. I checked with the loupe after each plain water set, and stopped after the third set because I stopped seeing improvement. By every measure I know, the razor is as sharp and fine as any I have yet honed.

The only thing left to do with this razor is to shave with it. At this point my hopes are very high, and I know I will either be flying high, or down in the dumps based on how the shave turns out. On another note, I'm considering giving this one to my cousin as his first straight, and if this turns out as nice as I want it to then I'll send it to him. That just seems special that his first razor will have a coticule edge.

Wish me luck with this one. I'll post here after the shave, and hopefully a celebratory SOTD.

Michael

It's nice when you get the first one under your belt. I've recently accomplished the same feat, and shaving with your own edge is a real thrill.

Michael, Bravo!!!

I've torn good portions of my remaining hair out, trying to coax a good edge from a coti. 'Usually about a low to mid 8k level result. In the last month or so, the keenness has gotten ALOT better. I'm not as discouraged. 'Very happy to hear you're getting the joy from your 'verte. 'Have a La Veinette on the way from the honorable bloodhoundman. 'Can't wait. Veinette is supposed to be one of the better finisher, and this one's big enough to land small planes on. Okay, its 10.5x2.5. 'Seems huge to me. 'Hope this dog hunts.

Looks like I'm down in the dumps today. Oh well

Michael

Ah well, try, try again. I have a lot of trouble too. Better luck next time! :)

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I've torn good portions of my remaining hair out, trying to coax a good edge from a coti

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That may be your problem. I approach coticule honing as relaxed as I can. If your frustrated you might be unconsciously applying too much pressure.

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Looks like I'm down in the dumps today. Oh well

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Michael try this:
Check you still have a good bevel by seeing if it cuts armhair above skin level, if it doesn't, check that it cuts at skin level. If it does try this:

Rinse the stone under the tap making sure the surface is clean of swarf and other stuff, maybe rub your hand over it as well just to make sure.
shake it to remove all but a very thin layer of water.
do 30 halfstrokes (60 in total, both sides) make sure it doesn't go dry, if it does, run the razor under the tap and use that to hydrate the hone.
carry out each side in groups of 5 halfstrokes - 5 halfstrokes, change side, 5 halfstrokes, change side
do these slowly and with only enough pressure to keep the razor on the hone

Next do 20 xstrokes with the same pressure and see how it catches a hanging hair or cuts leghair above skin level.


Try it and see if it makes a difference. Oh yeah, you don't need to do halfstrokes. I do circles with no finger pressure with strokes coming towards me and halstrokes going away from me. Its the only way I can get light enough strokes with my right hand after bevel setting. Also Try and let the slurry do the work after bevel setting instead of using pressure

good luck Michael

Michael,

Dumpstown - We'll all be there again. What was the shave like?

I've had a few that started keen and didn't last the entire shave. 'Went back and did it again, and it continues to work fine. Cotis have not come easily for me. I don't think they're for everyone, but I wouldn't bail out on a rock without 100 or more blades on it. Naturals seem to like to vex us on a regular basis. Hang in there.

Alex,
You inspired me to try again I'm not to comfy with half x-strokes. If those aren't working can I just switch back to regular x's.

Pinklather- The shave was very short. After I did a couple of sectors on my face I switched to de w feather blade. No nicks, just discomfort and pulling. I agree that naturals are tougher. I have had no success on naturals yet at all

Michael

If it was just pulling, try this. Do 40 slow x strokes on your coticule with a thin coating of clear water. Watch the water and make sure you're pushing it evenly across the whole blade; re-wet if it get too dry. Once you've done that, strop the daylights out of the blade. I do 40/60 linen leather coming off a coticule and then use one of my wife's hairs for a HHT. If it isn't acceptable, another 40/60 and another HHT. If it's getting better, you can always keep stropping (that's what I do). If it isn't getting better, then it's back to the stone with some slurry.

FWIW, I only use my coticule as a finisher. I tried the dilucot method once, and it didn't work for me. I could have spent more time and figured it out for my stone, but I don't have a proper slurry stone for my coti. My DMT-325 will raise a slurry, but most of it sticks to the DMT and washing it off onto the coti makes it too thin to really work like it's supposed to.

Its all preference Michael, I use circles for one side and halfstrokes for the other side when honing. its the only way I can keep the razors pressure equal on both sides.

if the edge doesn't improve look at this thread: http://www.coticule.be/the-cafeteria...22.html?page=2 it should also work with a 1k stone, a coticule bevel is smoother but I would try it and see how it is after trying to improve it with the above.

I've found with Naturals that pressure is far more important or lack thereof. what do you think Pinklather?





Try

Hey,
sorry to hear it didn't work out for you. I have been at the straights for 2 years now and still havn't made the jump to try my own honing. Alot of the storys I read here scare me lol. But I am thinking of ordering the norton 4k/8k combo stone very soon to try my hand at it. Do you think that would be a good starting point for me? I am only going to be maintaing the edges on two dovo razors I bought from lynn. They are in great shape right now and don't need any bevel setting. just a quick sharpen here and there. I don't want to create another one of those "what stone should I buy" posts lol. so thought I would squeeze in the question here! thanks

Tried more with the coti today. Plain water only, very light pressure, clean stone. Polish improved with many strokes. Stropped linen and leather. Really gave it my A-game stropping. Looks better but I'm not convinced yet. I will shave test this one again, but have another razor on backup. Thanks guys for the advice and heartfelt support.

Michael

Congrat's on the monster Coti. I think I saw that one on the classifieds. Good buy. IMO, all things being equal, a hone that size will be a lot easier to use than a bout, or a small rectangle.

Michael

Justalex, I feel very unqualified to speak of how to use a coti. Only in the last month or so have the edges really been that good.

I started out using no pressure. For me, that was a mistake. In a kind and generous phone conversation, Lynn suggested a process that gave a big improvement, especially w/ the monster LPB. 'Fairly reliable shaveable edge in a few min, but at that point I still hit the low-mid 8k level of keenness. It was 40 circles, each direction, each side with moderately heavy pressure, followed by 20 x-strokes w/ same pressure. Dilute slurry to about 1/2 that consistency, repeat w/ heavy pressure. Repeat w/ same slurry, using no pressure. One more sequenc on water with no pressure and only 5-10 x-strokes. The LPB gave a shave every time. The Dressante, I couldn't get to work. Now, I start w/ LPB, transition to the Dressante w/ med-light slurry. First sequence is moderate to light pressure, checking for any sections left behind. Any slow sections, I repeat w/ 20 circles, focusing on that section and the transition to the sections immediately adjacent. First 10 circles have light pressure, 2nd 10 have none. For me, the transition from pressure to no pressure seems to have been quite important.

I've tried going further w/ mineral oil on top, and even a paste of bees wax cut w/ turpentine, suggested by the wonderful Emmanuel on Coti.be. Sometimes works well, and get very high keenness. I've had less regular results w/ the mineral oil, but Disburden has had very satisfying results from it. 'Seems like each rock and each person has to flail about to find the recipe for their rock.

The honorable Bloodhoundman let me know the big rock is on its way. 'Can't wait. The only other rock that has me provoked is that Gokumyo 20k. The two users that responded to my ignorant questions were divided on the smoothness, but that's more fixable w/ a jnat or Thuri. 'Seems to be an alternative to the high grit shaptons. They want serious coin for that rock, so it prob. won't happen anytime soon.

MJS, I'm as excited as you'd guess about the big Veinette. I tried to buy from Maurice at Ardennes, and the prices exceeded the cost of a quality jnat. 'Probably would have been a good stone, but I'm just not ready to part w/ that much for a coti, already having a couple bouts (6x2 and 1.5 x 9). I paid ALOT for a 7x2 Nak. Asagi from Yamashita-san at Japan tool. Good edges came quickly. A couple hundred blades later, I've become a very happy guy. I tried one Nak. Kiita edge from a skilled member, and it was good, but a bit on the crispy side, compared to the asagi. Other say they love the keenness from the jnat, but then take the edge to other stones to smooth it out. What makes me so satisfied w/the asagi is that both are available w/ the right technique, which usually involves alot more strokes than a normal finisher, and keeping a very very light slurry on the surface. Others probably know how to obtain such edges with a proper technique. For now, I must be satisfied w/ stumbling awkwardly into a fine edge using way too many strokes. Reports from recipients of the edges seems encouraging.

Keep going, MJS. If the Verte is the only stone right now, keep working different techniques. If it would be helpful to have an edge refreshed, pm me. Pick up postage & honing is free. I have alot of empathy for one trying to learn the coti. Its been a tough rock for me.

If your coticule is improving the edge as slowly as you seem to be describing, then you may have a really slow stone. You might try a little more slurry and not diluting as fast.

The LPB is incredibly fast. The Dressante is very slow. It was, in fact, the use of more slurry when coming off another stone that brought the joy from the Dressante. I used to go from coti to Nani 12 to Asagi. Now, just coti to asagi.

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Originally Posted by myersn024

If your coticule is improving the edge as slowly as you seem to be describing, then you may have a really slow stone. You might try a little more slurry and not diluting as fast.

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This has been my thinking. I am going to do a small shave test first but if that doesn't work, then I'm going to hit it with some pressure on a milky slurry. After I'm 100% sure the bevel is set, I'm going to do dilutions again, except with 20 or thirty strokes in between. Good Idea?

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Originally Posted by pinklather

Keep going, MJS. If the Verte is the only stone right now, keep working different techniques. If it would be helpful to have an edge refreshed, pm me. Pick up postage & honing is free. I have alot of empathy for one trying to learn the coti. Its been a tough rock for me.

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Thanks for the offer. I have Nortons, Naniwa 12k, plus a few natural stones. Several of my other razors are shaving sharp, and I'm getting better on the hones all the time. Just now trying to get something out of this coticule so I can do more than just look at it. Would like to see one of your honing jobs someday though. Maybe we could trade razors. When I get something done on this coticle I can see what you think of the edge, and you send me one honed on your veinette.

Michael

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Originally Posted by mjsorkin

This has been my thinking. I am going to do a small shave test first but if that doesn't work, then I'm going to hit it with some pressure on a milky slurry. After I'm 100% sure the bevel is set, I'm going to do dilutions again, except with 20 or thirty strokes in between. Good Idea?l

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All the videos that I've watched on dilucot honing use something in the neighborhood of 20 strokes on each side of the bevel before diluting with a single drop of water. You may have to do something in the neighborhood of 10 to 15 dilutions before rinsing and finishing on clean water. Keep in mind that I haven't successfully honed a razor this way, either. My coticule is too slow to work well without a real slurry stone.

I am struggling with the Coti as well. That said, last week my major break through was that my rock is indeed much slower than average. On a recommendation from another member, I did 100 strokes on just water, with the last 30 being almost no pressure, and my shave improved dramatically.

Pinklather, I'm a beginner at this as well. I've had my coticule for a year and just in the last couple months got super edges. I got a standard coticule bout which Bart and other members estimated to be a Dressante, which I also had a problem with getting edges from it and sometimes still do, until I realised less is more.

I rely on the TPT and armhair test; if the TPT is grippy AND it cuts armhair easily I try and stay on the same slurry with light circles and halfstrokes then dilute from there. Somtimes I can go 4 dilutions and be ready for the very thin water layer followed by under the tap.
Is your Dressante relatively hard and slow on water?

One major problem that I had was drying slurry. I felt the slurry on the razor drying which I felt was dulling the edge and felt like I had a slow stone, sometimes I could do a razor in ten minutes sometimes I would spend that alone on honing a bevel dulled on glass.

My dressante dries out alot quicker than my BBW and la verte and I noticed I got great easily obtained edges on both these but not the dressante. So I rinse the razor, flick it and use the water on the razor to dilute also making sure the slurry on the dressante is not dry, if it is I move it around with my slurry stone, making sure the whole surface stays wet and I use light strokes after the bevel setting stage until water where I do slow super light xstrokes.

My consistency has went through the roof after this. I don't even do that many strokes under the tap, if everything else before was done properly I don't think you need to. Just finish on the very thin water stage (especially if you have a hard coticule which I assume the dressante usually are)

regards Alex

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Originally Posted by mjsorkin

... Would like to see one of your honing jobs someday though. Maybe we could trade razors. When I get something done on this coticle I can see what you think of the edge, and you send me one honed on your veinette.

Michael

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Michael, it would be a pleasure!

I decided to try again tonight, but quickly lost my focus and went into a "hone rage". I was just honing like crazy, not really paying attention to what I was doing. I reigned myself in after a little but am now totally off track with what I was doing with this razor. So for now I think I am done with this stone. I'm not giving up on it entirely but I'm going to take a break from it. I'm learning too much with regular honing, to just lose my focus and spend so much honing time on this coticule. So tomorrow, I'm going to hone this razor on my usual progression and I think it will turn out just fine. In a few days/weeks, maybe I will try the stone out for it's original intended use: as a finisher to be used after 8k. Hopefully that will work out, if not I will just put it away again or maybe even sell it.

----Michael

Hey, Alex.

My Dressante is very hard, very slow - opposite of the LPB. If I start on the lpb, I'll do 25-30 circles, then 2-5 x-strokes, repeating w/ less pressure each cycle. I only need slurry on the LPB if the steel is really hard, adding 1-3 drops of water at each cycle. This us just building the keenness. When TPT feels very keen all along, I'll switch to the Dressante w/ med light slurry. The Dressante requires the slurry to pick up where the LPB left off. This was the big game changer. The Dressante doesn't seem to dry very fast for me, but if it did, I'd be adding 1-2 drops at each cycle.

It must be a severe sickness. 'Honed blade 308 today and I'm sitting here wondering if there's anything else I can hone tonight.

'Appreciate your sharing your thoughts and techniques, Alex.

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Honed blade 308 today and I'm sitting here wondering if there's anything else I can hone tonight.

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:rofl2: OCHD maybe? (obsessive compulsive honing disorder)

I've recently been experimenting with a method that incorporates a sort of mini dilucot (fully set bevel, straight to water, make a 1% milk slurry, dilute to water, and finish) It seems to give consistently good edges, I know there's something else that the coticules doing that I'm not seeing though.

I have a theory that a smoothed out bevel can be sharpened further than a bevel straight from thick slurry to finish, I can't try it now(ran out of razors to hone) but, the next variation I'm going to try is Gary's mini dilucot: set bevel -> water, then-> thinner bevel setting slurry(in between semi skimmed milk and 1% milk slurry) -> back to water-> finish

Currently it feels like sharpness is added before water by the slurry while smoothness is added by the thin slurry afterwards, so I'm going to see what a bevel setting slurry does to a smoothed bevel then back to water.

After the first method the razor is as smooth as a butter knife, to be honest I couldn't get a violin from the HHT, but it shaved VERY comfortable and pretty damn close, but it can be closer. I had to check it was removing hairs it felt that dull, very strange feeling.

Absolutely OCHD, and SAD to boot (skills acquisition disorder).

Blade 317 last night. :)