Rolling Question

Hi gents,

For context, this is the blade I am talking about. http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ven-blade.html

So I honed the blade a couple of nights ago. Took the advise to not bk it. :)


With MMT, the bevel are pretty even except the very toe, which after careful inspection is not really touching the hone.


I then used x strokes to hone it putting my index finger on the very toe to get it sharp (watched this on gssixgun honing video). I managed to get it shaving sharp and smooth, but the tip feels like it could use more work. It's not tugging, but just not as smooth as the rest of the blade.

mjsorkin suggested some rolling strokes.

I don't really understand how to perform this. I tried to torque the blade and imagine the pressure going from the heel to toe, but couldn't get a grip on the concept so I stick with x strokes with finger on the tip.

I have watched a video by kenrup who used rolling stroke with circles, which I find really interesting. In the video, all the rolling (X and circles) shows part of the spine is lifted. But I've also read that the rolling stroke is more of a pressure thing (is this done with torque as I have done?)

Any comments will be much appreciated.

Cheers,
Sy

Sy

To do a rolling stroke you can start out with the toe of the razor slightly raised off the hone, then as you move across the hone you move the point of contact until the toe is on the hone and the heel is slightly off. With practice, the motion becomes easier and more subtle. Also with practice, and depending on the razor, you can vary the motion quite a bit.

To me, torquing the blade involves the other axis. You are ever so slightly "twisting" the blade, "pressing" the bevel into the hone.

If the finger on the blade is working for you then I would stick with that. Just keep the pressure light with that finger. Maybe you are doing everything right and it just needs a little work right at the tip? Try the thumb nail test. If that spot grabs a lot less than the rest of the blade then you have your answer.

Michael

+1 to what Michael said....

I had the hardest time getting the right feel, but starting with the heel down and actually concentrating on the movement forward, at the same time flattening the razor, then further down the stone raising the heel.

With a little practice it starts to feel more 'right', is about the only way I can describe it. If you do it slowly and concentrate on the blade position, you can start to get the muscle memory building.

There are still some razors that I have trouble with, but i know now that I've done a few successfully that it will come. I've proven to myself that I can do it, so it's only a matter of taking it slowly and feeling what is going on.

Remember, toe up, flat, heel up. Works every time, just go slow until the feel is there.

Good luck!!

Mike

What works for me doing an uneven blade is to use the most narrow stone that I have, which for me is a 1" coticule. The wider the stone, the harder it is to sharpen an uneven blade.

In addition to the stuff suggested in the earlier posts, I also try to "feel" the edge as it works across the stone. After a while, you can get pretty good at feeling when the edge is in good contact with the stone vs when it isn't. You learn to feel the imperfections in the edge as they rub against the stone. That is why I prefer some types of stones to others, as certain ones let you "feel" the edge better while your working on it.

Firstly thanks for all the responses guys.

Michael: the particular blade has problem only at the tip section, but I have another blade which is problematic at many other spots. Thus, wanting to know about rolling x stroke. I tried putting my finger on all the problematic spots at the other blade, but doesn't seem to work very well during polishing stage.

I've got further questions if you guys don't mind.

1. Do you only use rolling x stroke on a smiling wedge, or does it work even for a full hollow as long as it has some smile or warp?

2. I tried doing rolling x stroke on a full hollow blade and find myself scraping on the edge of the hone (the chamfered part). How do I avoid this? The stroke feels rough and to me undo the honing.

3. If you are doing rolling x stroke with toe up, flat and heel up, don't you only actually use a narrow section of the hone? If so, why does a narrower hone make it easier?

Cheers,
Sy

Sy,

Ya, I found myself scraping the chamfered part as well.. I don't think it is really roughing it up, but because the part in contact is so narrow your feel is so much rougher. I didn't stop and it didn't matter.

Narrower allows a smaller section of the blade to contact the hone individually. If you look at the razor as three part, toe, heel, center, then imagine the blade your working on is a bow ) a narrower hone allows full contact on each section of the razor to go easier. If the toe is also making contact, then the center is not, same with the heel. But if the hone is narrower, then the center CAN make contact without impacting either the toe or heel.

I hope my pitiful attempt at explanation and visualization helps. :)

Mike

The width of the hone makes no difference, it is a myth, whatever size you learn the proper technique on is the best width hone,, I swear if it were really easier I would actually use mine...

Don't believe me, just draw a line down the center of the hone long ways and only hone on half :) you have to learn how to roll the pressure on a certain spot on the razor...

The problem with the Rolling/Rocking X is that every demo of it is exaggerated to show the motion, want to have a hard time honing a razor, go ahead and lift that spine off the hone... The pressure rolls not the spine, yes I know it sounds odd but that is what needs to happen...

You might want to learn a 45 degree heel forward swooping stoke and make the bevel and your life much nicer and more even...

BTW to the OP that edge really should not need anything more than a Full X stroke perhaps heel forward you start doing gymnastics with it and it is going to get worse rather than better... It really doesn't look that bad in the pics

gssixgun,
On that particular blade, I ended up doing a normal x stroke with heel forward and some attention with index finger on the toe to get that sharp. After that the shave off the 8k was unbelievably smooth. :) The very toe is not as smooth, but I can live with that until my technique has improved.
I was just curious about this rolling x stroke. I agree with you, lifting the spine off the hone for a beginner honer like me sounds like a sure recipe for disaster.

I found what I think a very good video on rolling x stroke. Any comments guys?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHZ4rmL-6Fg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mjhammer

Narrower allows a smaller section of the blade to contact the hone individually. If you look at the razor as three part, toe, heel, center, then imagine the blade your working on is a bow ) a narrower hone allows full contact on each section of the razor to go easier. If the toe is also making contact, then the center is not, same with the heel. But if the hone is narrower, then the center CAN make contact without impacting either the toe or heel.

I hope my pitiful attempt at explanation and visualization helps. :)

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I don't quite understand what you mean by the center can make contact without impacting the toe or heel. If the bow is rolled from the heel to the toe, wouldn't each section contact the hone separately? Wouldn't using one side of the wider hone does the same?

Mike, your effort are much appreciated. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gnoils

I don't quite understand what you mean by the center can make contact without impacting the toe or heel. If the bow is rolled from the heel to the toe, wouldn't each section contact the hone separately? Wouldn't using one side of the wider hone does the same?

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Yes it does. I honed my first big smile last week, and I used only the rightmost 1/3 of the stone for most of the process.

Charlie is using a Heel Forward Swooping Stroke and gently rolling the pressure off the stone.. It is almost exactly what I was talking about but if you slide the heel forward a bit more, the pressure roll is even easier to control... How you roll the pressure is the entire trick to this stroke, and takes a bit to master...


There is only one "Rule" the spot on the edge that is on the hone must have the same opposing spot on the spine touching the hone at the same time, this is where the biggest problems arise because, first off the Vintage razors many times have multiple bevels to start and those have to be eliminated..

Keep in mind that we are talking about 3 different types of razors now on this thread ..

The OP's Dovo that really didn't need the technique
Charlie's custom razor that has no issues
A theoretical, Vintage razor with a smiling blade and a heavy grind that has multiple bevels

These 3 types of razors are all handled slightly different there is no one size fits all rule here...

I just recently added a wedge with a good smile on it, watch many videos and threads about it, and its definately a different animal, and took me a while to get it right, went back to the hones a few times but it was a blast, and shaving with a wedge is certainly different and so quiet............

Thanks for the information guys. I have a smiling razor that I will try to hone. :)