bevel setting problem: uneven bevel width?

Good day,

this is a really beginner bevel setting question here: I am trying to set bevel on a hollow ground razor. The bevel width is uneven throughout the length of the blade and it has a different shape on each side of the blade. for example: on one side of the blade the bevel is thin in the center and wide on heel and toe. on the other side the bevel width gets gradually wider from heel to toe.

the blade is flat, I mean there is no frown or smile. I hone with no tape and I try to slurry up my Norton 1k to speed up the process.
I try doing circles, half strokes and x strokes to bite enough into fresh steel until the bevel is nice and even on both sides. I try to keep the pressure very constant, but unfortunately I seem to be having the same pattern on the bevel just the length of the razor getting shorter and shorter!!

Any help is appreciated.

Dan

To start with I would advise using one layer of electrical tape until you get more "chops" when it comes to honing. This way you won't cause undue wear on the spine while you're in the learning stages. If the bevel is uneven after doing what you have described I would think there might be a slight warp in the spine or it was unevenly ground to begin with. Is it a new razor ? It could have been improperly honed to that state too. Anyway, this is where the marker test, blacking the razors edge with a marker and doing a few strokes to see where it is making contact, pays off.

You may need to do a modified , perhaps rolling, X stroke even though the blade is not a smiling one. Also, while an even bevel is esthetically pleasing, it is not a prerequisite for a shave ready razor. Some of them are just a bit out of whack and the bevel won't be consistent from one side to the other , or even from end to end on either side.

Thank you very much JimmyHAD
OK I thought maybe adding tape would make things worse, that is why I took off the tape. It is a NOS 6/8 George Butler Sheffield razor I would say full hollow to extra hollow. I am setting the bevel for the first time. so you say I should use some black permenant marker and blacken the bevel?

Thanks
Dan

Try the tape, but don't obsess over bevel evenness. I've got some fantastic shavers with slightly warped spines (and therefore uneven bevels). Use a Sharpie on the edge and see if you're removing it all (at the *edge*) when you hone. If so, you're hitting the whole edge, and you should be good to go -- uneven bevel or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danielghofrani

Thank you very much JimmyHAD
OK I thought maybe adding tape would make things worse, that is why I took off the tape. It is a NOS 6/8 George Butler Sheffield razor I would say full hollow to extra hollow. I am setting the bevel for the first time. so you say I should use some black permenant marker and blacken the bevel?

Thanks
Dan

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Dan, just FYI, when I began fooling with honing I messed with razors that I wouldn't even consider buying today. Something like what you've got there I would either send to Lynn to hone so I would get a first class job and have a razor to shave with and to compare my efforts to.IOW I started out with razors that I didn't care if I messed them up. Getting razors honed by Lynn and a few other meisters allowed me to feel the edges and look at them under magnification. That is how I discovered that an absolutely scratch free, shiny bevel was not necessary for a shave ready razor. Anyway ....

Yeah, take some marker and blacken the edge. Do a couple of strokes and see if you're removing the marker. It will let you know if you're making contact edge to stone. It is a PITA to remove if you go ahead and keep honing and sharpen the razor before taking it off. When I use it I wipe it off with lighter fluid as soon as I know what stroke works ..... 'cause I have it. You can also use nail polish remover ( naphtha, same as lighter fluid) and I've heard alcohol works well but I haven't tried it. Go to the SRP library and check out the rolling x. Glen or Lynn may have a video showing the technique as well ...... dunno. :gl:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Dan, just FYI, when I began fooling with honing I messed with razors that I wouldn't even consider buying today. Something like what you've got there I would either send to Lynn to hone so I would get a first class job and have a razor to shave with and to compare my efforts to.IOW I started out with razors that I didn't care if I messed them up. Getting razors honed by Lynn and a few other meisters allowed me to feel the edges and look at them under magnification. That is how I discovered that an absolutely scratch free, shiny bevel was not necessary for a shave ready razor. Anyway ....

Yeah, take some marker and blacken the edge. Do a couple of strokes and see if you're removing the marker. It will let you know if you're making contact edge to stone. It is a PITA to remove if you go ahead and keep honing and sharpen the razor before taking it off. When I use it I wipe it off with lighter fluid as soon as I know what stroke works ..... 'cause I have it. You can also use nail polish remover ( naphtha, same as lighter fluid) and I've heard alcohol works well but I haven't tried it. Go to the SRP library and check out the rolling x. Glen or Lynn may have a video showing the technique as well ...... dunno. :gl:

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Thanks for the reply. Actually I would prefer to mess around with cheap razors but unfortunately this one is my cheapest. (I have a now useless kabeso but I have deformed the geometry too much for it to ever become shave ready).

hehe I have lighter fluids for my zippo! I did not understand what you meant by wiping it off. should I not "wipe it off" by honing the blade and removing the steel?

Thanks for the rolling x stroke tip. I was just mentioning an example about the bevel being more narrow at heel and tip. I have a different problem with different blades, that was an example.

mainaman was very kind and honed one of my razors for me I have not shaved with it yet (will do tommorow). it is pretty mirror but not 100% but boy it is sharp (tried popping arm hair above skin).

Thanks JimmyHAD!

Dan

Dan, take a little lighter fluid on a paper towel and carefully wipe off any excess marker. If you're more careful than I am you may only get it in the honing area but I tended to get it up above there too when I used to use it. I rarely do anymore. Just haven't needed to in a pretty good while but it is a good method for seeing where you're at if you're not sure.

Also , the lighter fluid is good for removing tape residue when the spine is taped. Don't make the same mistake I did and leave tape on overnight after a honing session. It may etch a line into the blade where the tape ends and it is sometimes very difficult to remove the mark. Peel it and clean when the session is done and you'll not have that problem.

What kind of marker are you guys using that it is a problem to remove? And even if you couldn't what problem would it cause on a practice blade?

Thanks a lot.
Actually I am not obsessing over the evenness but at some parts of the spine I can see under the loupe that the bevel is sooo narrow that looks like there is no bevel to the naked eye. sadly the edge probing results are worse along those parts of the edge as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 32t

What kind of marker are you guys using that it is a problem to remove? And even if you couldn't what problem would it cause on a practice blade?

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I don't like to have magic marker stains along the length of the blade, practice or not. YMMV. If it doesn't bother you wiping it off is optional.

Two thoughts:

1. If a razor has been ground with constant blade width (that is, an even 6/8"), but some parts of the blade are thicker at the edge than others (a manufacturing flaw), and the spine is of constant thickness, the bevel will be wider where the grind is thicker. That doesn't affect the "shavability" of the razor _at all_; you can ignore it. In fact, you _must_ ignore it, because you cannot hone such a razor so that it has a constant-width bevel.

2. A symptom of a warped blade is:

. . . on one side, the bevel is narrow at the center, and wide at the heel and toe, and
. . . on the other side, the bevel is narrow at the heel and toe, and wide at the center.

If you're worried, or unskilled, and the blade is warped, send it to somebody who can handle it. They can be really tough.

Charles

Thanks for the help Charles.

I want to learn honing and sending it to someone who can handle it is not an option :D (I do that for razors that I actually care about!! :p )

Thanks for letting me know that the uneven bevel will not interfere with shavability because I was under the impression that if I have not managed to make an even bevel, the bevel is not set properly.

Regards
Dan

I suspect you would do much better if you set your bevel on something grittier like the DMT 325. Could be wrong, since I don't have the razor in hand.

It is not that you can't set the bevel on the 1K. But, from your comments, you have a lot of metal to remove. With the 1K, I suspect, you can reset the bevel, but only after hours of honing. And, you will likely grow frustrated and use too much pressure. This will likely result in you deforming the blade during honing, which will not then hone off the high spots to give you a correct bevel setting. And, you will get just what you described: all portions of the blade being honed down.

The one thing to remember is that you really are not going to get an even looking bevel with the wear you are describing. The real key is to try to get the razor to lay as flat on the hone as possible which is where the circles come in. The top part of the bevel will always reflect the wear on the spine. But, so long as you can get the edge flat on the stone or as flat as possible on it, you will be good and the important part of the bevel will be right. If you can't get the edge totally flat on the stone, the rolling X should take care of it and get you all the way there. In most cases unless you really have some damage, a 1K will work very well and would be all you need.

Have fun.

Thank you very much Lynn and Larry,

Lynn, I am not having this problem with only one razor. different razors have different uneven bevels. I will try to keep it as flat as possible and do circles.

by the way is slurrying up the Norton 1k with DMT 120 a good idea to increase speed?

Thanks
Dan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danielghofrani

I will try to keep it as flat as possible and do circles.

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Dan, "you" don't keep it flat. It either lays flat on the stone or it does not. If it does that is swell but if not you manipulate the blade , such as the rolling x or a variation thereof, to contact the edge with the stone, keeping the contact between stone, edge and spine parallel throughout the stroke. If that makes any sense.

Thank you JimmyHAD,
I understand what you mean but the last sentence was alittle too advanced for me! :p what do you mean by parallel?

Thanks

I had what sounds like the same problem on a De Pews I bought, a warped blade and several bevels. I only had a Norton 4/8 and Shapton 16k. In the end I used some 1200 wet and dry sandpaper wrapped around the Norton to speed things up a little. I found with the warp (which resulted in what you describe; a bevel that represented a twisted ribbon if you get what I mean) I needed to use a stroke where I'd start with the heel on the hone and finish with the toe on the stone for one side. On the other side, though, I used a 'normal' stroke. As I guessed for a normal stroke the whole (almost) length of the edge is being worn by the (almost) whole length of the hone, but for the modified (rolling x stroke?) stroke I described, each part of the edge was getting LESS wearing on each pass on the hone, I would do three on one side to one on the other. In the end, though I didn't end up with an even bevel, I did end up with a nice shaving edge; and a bevel that at least went right to the edge if you know what I mean.

The guys that have responded to your question know a LOT more about this than I, but I thought maybe my questions and the answers I received (here) might assist you.

Oh, BTW, the comment by ominaru55 in the thread I posted about the heel on the third page of the thread was really important. I took the heel off on the side of my Norton lapping stone. I did end up with a wide bevel, but that doesn't bother me.