Help needed with coticule honing.

Hi there. So, I've been using a straight razor for roughly six months, and it is now very blunt. I got given a Belgian coticule as a gift (wouldn't have been my first choice as I'm new to honing). I've been playing around with it and so far I'm not getting anywhere. I blunted the razor on a jam jar first (so it no longer shaves arm hair), then proceeded to raise a thick slurry and try some different strokes. No matter what stroke I use, the slurry goes grey very quickly, but the edge gets no sharper - any tips would be welcome.

You should not have blunted it. Look on Youtube under coticule and follow the videos. I just think you wiped out the edge completely, and need to rese
t the bevel and progress to sharp.

Tried techniques for resetting the bevel (half X back and forth strokes) - still getting the same thing, very grey slurry but no edge to speak of.

Even though a bevel could be set with a Coticule, I prefer to set the bevel with my Chosera 1K. You would be set with those two stones.

Hey, K.

I certainly have not found them the easiest rock to master, but can reliably get most edges above an 8k level in sharpness. With no mention of what you've read or been told about their use, perhaps some 'how to' links would be helpful.
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http://coticule.be/unicot.html
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http://coticule.be/dilucot-honing-method.html
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also, a description of your coti - or better, a photo might help others identify some of the stereotypic behaviors.

A thick slurry can have quite a dulling effect on the edge, known as slurry dulling, my guess is that this is at least part of your problem, the slurry shouldn't be any thicker than it looking like you've spilled milk on the stone.

I also much prefer setting the bevel on a 1K synthetic stone, but it is doable with a coticule.

sounds like your new to honing? so what ever hone you use you will not get instant results. i can get great edges that are as nice as it gets with one coticule. then again i've ben using coticules a long ish while .. your best bet is to go to coticule.be read through sharpening acadamey and go from there. sounds like its quikenought to set a bevel also sounds like your slurry is very thick. read up and se if your atempts get any better.
any one who can reach 8k level should be able to get a great shave wheather its 8k norton or a coticule .
gary

Coticules take a while to master. Darkening or graying slurry is an idication that you are removing steel. A good sign. The faster you see that, the faster your stone is, normally. If your blade does need the bevel re set, (and it sounds like it does) it could take a while. If this is your only razor, you may want to send it out to be honed, and get another razor to practice honing on.

K, if its your only blade, 'would be happy to hone - just pick up postage costs.

Also, if its your only blade, you need a 2nd blade to keep shaving with while you learn honing on the other one. 'Doesn't need to be a costly blade, but should have a straight edge (no smile or frown), preferably full hollow, and needs to have some metal that extends below the shoulder stabilizers 'cause you're gonna need to be able to wear some of that metal away.

i think you most likely ruined your bevel. You will probably have more luck setting the bevel on a 1k stone.

Pics of the blade might help. Pics of the coti won't be turned away, either. :)

Hey guys, thanks for all the feed back, I've read up a lot on honing but obviously practice is the key, will check out the links you gave me.

Thought I'd put all the information on my razor / hone and what I've been doing down here to give you a better idea of the situation.

Razor - Dovo Prima Klang - extra hollow ground - 5/8 blade - carbon steel - Picture

Hone - Belgian coticule - "La Veinette" - Picture

What I've tried - following unicot videos / articles, I've tried dulling the edge on glass then using half X back and forth strokes to try and get the blade to the stage where it will shave arm hair, so far, I can't get it even remotely sharp.

I've done pretty much the things you're doing and with similar results. How I fixed it? I threw away the glass bottle, put the coticule up, learned to set the bevel on a norton 1k and then learned to progress through the 4 and 8k until I was getting comfortable shaves on a consistent basis. Then I brought the coticule back out, cut the slurry to skim milk and fairly rapidly diluted to water. Hundreds of strokes on a poor bevel are not better than 10's of strokes on a good bevel. It really comes down to time on the hones (personal experience) and starting on a system that has as few variables as possible. I've shared your frustration! Good Luck and hope it comes together for you in short order! Wouldn't hurt to get an old razor to practice this on and not ruin your nice Dovo.

Best Regards,

Howard

Edit: I hope, with all the half strokes and time on the hone, you're taping the spine. It can sure save you some heartache in the beginning. Decide later on if you want to keep taping.

Prima Klang is one of my favourite dovo's.
gary

Perhaps working on your honing stroke would help. I found doing regular x strokes on light slurry as opposed to half stokes allows one to develop a good feel for the blade on the stone and builds muscle memory. Build up to using half strokes by adding in the occasional half stoke during normal honing. Whilst you can fairly quickly establish a bevel using quick half stokes, if you don't have a nice even stroke you can also quickly wipe out an edge. One poor stroke can wipe out many good ones.

What size is your stone ????

Thats why I am a bit angry at the coticule guys sometimes, they make newbies believe that honing with a coticule is like doing some circles, half-strokes, some dilutions, and voilá, you have a smooth and sharp edge, but this isn't the case a lot of times.

Someone who is new to honing shouldn't do circles and half-strokes, it is hard enough to master a nice even X-stroke, and not just for a new guy. Thats why I advise everyone to start honing on synths, you can focus on learning how to hone, learn the sharpness tests, and learn how a good 8k shave feels like.

Setting a bevel with a coti: it can be done, but it is tedious with the majority of cotis if you are honing factory honed razors or vintage/fleamarket razors. Especially for those who are new to this. Learning what consistency the slurry should be, when to refresh, when to dilute, a lot of problems. If you use too little slurry than it will take ages, but if you use too much than the slurry will dull the edge so much that you won't be able to shave arm hair.

Do yourself a favor, and buy yourself at least a 1k stone, it will make life much easier.

HEY where are you from?

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Originally Posted by jeness

Thats why I am a bit angry at the coticule guys sometimes, they make newbies believe that honing with a coticule is like doing some circles, half-strokes, some dilutions, and voilá, you have a smooth and sharp edge, but this isn't the case a lot of times.

Someone who is new to honing shouldn't do circles and half-strokes, it is hard enough to master a nice even X-stroke, and not just for a new guy. Thats why I advise everyone to start honing on synths, you can focus on learning how to hone, learn the sharpness tests, and learn how a good 8k shave feels like.

Setting a bevel with a coti: it can be done, but it is tedious with the majority of cotis if you are honing factory honed razors or vintage/fleamarket razors. Especially for those who are new to this. Learning what consistency the slurry should be, when to refresh, when to dilute, a lot of problems. If you use too little slurry than it will take ages, but if you use too much than the slurry will dull the edge so much that you won't be able to shave arm hair.

Do yourself a favor, and buy yourself at least a 1k stone, it will make life much easier.

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This is a very good post IMO.

Nothing wrong with a Coticule, but this is basically the reasons the Coticule isn't perhaps the best choice for people starting out in honing.

I've got two coticules that I've been unable to figure out, so I completely understand the frustration of the OP. It definitely helps having a 1k stone for bevel setting, but even then my results have been sub-par. I'm determined to figure them out, but coticules are some of the weirdest natural stones that I've worked with yet. One of mine is super slow on just water, but add the smallest amount of slurry and it will dull the edge quicker than quick. The other seems pretty fast (slurried, it will start to darken in 10 or 15 strokes) but I haven't been able to get a shaveable edge off of it either. I recently tried finishing on glycerin, and the results were terrible. I've even taken Glen's advice and tried finishing a Sheffield blade on a coti, and while it shaved, it sure wasn't fun.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If I'd started honing with a coticule, I probably would have quit a long time ago. I was getting good edges off my Nortons within a week of starting to learn how to hone, and they've gotten a lot better since then. The cotis are a different beast altogether, and there seems to be so much variation between each one that you just have to play with them until you get them figured out.... which is a difficult prospect for a noob honer.

Nearly every coticule honer I know has a reliable 1k/320 grit backup stone to set bevels or remove chips in case a coticule can't do the job.

You may not realise it but depending on the size of your coticule and how narrow it is, your stroke may be dulling the edge. I had a problem for along time where my stroke coming toward me would be messing up the edge (the blade was never fully flat until I changed how I held the coticule and razor) whereas the away stroke was near perfection every time.

Playing with slurry's on a new coticule is complicated, its hard but not impossible, but if you only have one razor, maybe send it to be rehoned and use the coticule for touch ups may be the best bet? you could find a junker from ebay and practice with that on the coticule to learn it

have you honed razors before?

regards Alex

I have a coticule. I'm happy to have it but would have a hard time with it as a firststone. It's too slow. Would take forever to set an eBay bevel. It's 40mm width makes it touh to do a stroke without tilting the blade. So if I were newer and without other options it would be very frustrating. If its all you have though, then I'm sure you can make it work. Just get some more razors and keep practicing. What do you have to lose?

Michael

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Originally Posted by kpower05

Hi there. So, I've been using a straight razor for roughly six months, and it is now very blunt. I got given a Belgian coticule as a gift (wouldn't have been my first choice as I'm new to honing). I've been playing around with it and so far I'm not getting anywhere. I blunted the razor on a jam jar first (so it no longer shaves arm hair), then proceeded to raise a thick slurry and try some different strokes. No matter what stroke I use, the slurry goes grey very quickly, but the edge gets no sharper - any tips would be welcome.

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ouch why blunt it? but no crying over spilled milk... pm me i probably have a spare razor you can have that i will bring up to speed with a coticule for you.

yes the edge can be done from start to finish on a coti or a barber's hone ( i think of coticules as natural barber's hone) but it takes time.

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Originally Posted by syslight

ouch why blunt it? but no crying over spilled milk... pm me i probably have a spare razor you can have that i will bring up to speed with a coticule for you.

yes the edge can be done from start to finish on a coti or a barber's hone ( i think of coticules as natural barber's hone) but it takes time.

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blunting it on glass is no problem. I do it all the time on my practice razors to rebuild the edge with a different combination of stones or protocols.One downstroke on glass doesn't take that long to rectify at all. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is using the BBW side of the hone with slurry. It brings the edge up to arm hair shaving very quickly and doesn't dull the blade as the coticule does.

After I dull it on glass(especially with the softer sheffields) I use the BBW side until it shaves arm hair and THEN go to the coti side with light slurry then to water. works very well.

One must look at strokes technique as well. if the edge isn't touching the stone throughout the whole stroke it doesn't matter what the stone is:))

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Originally Posted by syslight

ouch why blunt it?

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Bart has been promoting this blunting for several years now. The original idea was that beginners usually have a hard time establishing a good bevel, so blunting the edge removes some of the false positives, as then they are supposed to stay with thick slurry/low grit until the razor can shave arm hair, or some basic test like this.
Obviously there are other ways to address the exact same issue if it is an issue to start with, which do not involve blunting the razor.

Of course, like everything else when this becomes a religious point instead of a tool to solve a particular problem there are all kinds of problems.

Honing a razor in decent condition is fairly straightforward job when you know what you're doing. But when you have no reference whatsoever starting with a method that has huge unknowables that you need to figure out for your specific case, is not the best approach. That's why most people here recommend beginners start with known synthetic hones and eliminate the hone performance unknowns. Despite what all the coticule fanboys keep saying the variations among coticules are huge. I have used 30 or so coticules and that's enough to make the conclusion. Same thing with the BBW hone.

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Originally Posted by RogueRazor

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is using the BBW side of the hone with slurry. It brings the edge up to arm hair shaving very quickly and doesn't dull the blade as the coticule does.

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First, OP's hone doesn't have BBW side, it has a slate. Secondly the way your BBW performs isn't the way most of my BBW have been performing, so it's pretty foolish to presume the transferability that you do.

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Originally Posted by RogueRazor

One must look at strokes technique as well. if the edge isn't touching the stone throughout the whole stroke it doesn't matter what the stone is:))

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A fast hone in the 1000 grit range rectifies that pretty quickly, as long as the strokes are consistent. So yes, the hone does matter.



The only thing I could suggest to the OP is to find somebody local to him and get help in person. Or start doing something different, i.e. look at the edge with magnification, use sharpie if necessary to see what the hone is doing exactly. Then proceed based on what you learn.

OK now i understand the blunting (thanks Gugi), but i will not be making it a practice :)

yes i know all the coticules, bbw, Escher's thuringens (real ones) and other natural stones i have tried or own behave differently which is why i mainly just use one of type so i have a better understanding of how the razor will respond on it... and mainly they are the stones i like to shave off of.

i know the OP does not have other tools to experiment with and it can be daunting but in time and after watching some of the honing videos closely he should be OK ... but his best bet is to have it honed for him and then learn on an ugly blade....

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Originally Posted by gugi

find somebody [who has good honing experience] local to him and get help in person

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This is good advice and I agree with it. Hey, we need a this-is-good-advice-and-I-agree-with-it button

Why do you want to hone your coticule? Isn't it sharp enough?

James.

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Originally Posted by syslight

ouch why blunt it?.

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I've used this technique, and it helped me a lot with razors that hadn't been professionally honed before I received them (mostly eBay or junk store purchases). It helps me to make sure that I've actually set the bevel instead of getting a false positive on the TNT. However, on razors that I know were sharp and just need touch ups, I never blunt. That way all I have to do is re-finish them, or at worst a few swipes on the 8K and then back to the finisher de jour.