Printable View
I have no idea what's going on with this boker but I'm just trying to get the bevel set on darn thing using a norton 1k. And I can get the heal and alittle bit of the middle and the toe I know it sounds weird but I can't get the middle portion to pop hairs like I can the heal and toe do. Any suggestions will help
I had the same problem a couple weeks ago...heel and toe were fine but the the middle wouldn't get a good bevel set. Turned out, I hadn't gone long enough on the 1k and just 50 more strokes brought it right back up to snuff. Gunsight the razor to make sure that it's not warped as that is a whole other set of problems. It can take quite a while sometimes to set a proper bevel...if you lose too much patience, put a piece of electrical tape on the spine and that should quicken the process and save the razor from too much hone wear.
I do use tape already and I'll guess I'll stay on the 1k till its all there
Did you check for a frown? Even a barely perceptible one will vex you. Ofc, this is coming from a former coticule die hard, and I'm not sure how much extra honing it'd take with a 1k to get rid of one if it's there. Magic marker test it?
Six months ago, I had acquired a beautiful razor, shave ready (EXCEPT the last 1/2 inch to the toe). Noticed this on the first shave, smooth shave except the last 1/2 inch, which left the hair on the face. Worked it for "8" hours, shave testing as I went along.
The edge appeared flat, as the water flowed over the razor evenly, as I worked the various stones. Went to bed thinking about it. The conclusion for this newbie honer was that the last 1/2 inch was simply not touching the stones, as was the rest of the blade. I used the back side of my DMT 325 as a flat surface to test the blade. I got a pen light and turned the lights down in the kitchen; I laid the blade on the DMT and shined the light under it, from the back. The edge blocked the light, all but the last 1/2 inch, which shined through, underneath the edge. The blade was not flat. I went back to the stones and applied pressure with my finger on the toe (last 1/2 inch). In 20 minutes, she was shave ready and is in my rotation today. I just have to remember that this razor must be handled differently when honing.
Just a thought.
Applying pressure to the blade to force it to contact the stone will cause more problems than it solves. Doing so may seem to temporarily 'fix' the issue - but if you think about the blades geometry, and what happens if you flex or stress the blade to make contact - you'll see that somewere up the line your downward pressure at the heel will negatively affect the bevel, spine, edge, or all three. You can't just press in one place without exerting force in other areas - the blade is too stiff for that to work correctly.
Depending on the actual cause of the issue - a rolling x-stroke, use of a narrow hone, or a combination of both of those options, could be a better solution.
Use a 45 degree heel forward stroke depending on the warp or problem even more heel forward might be needed...
this eliminates all the honing gymnastics, thinner hones, rolling, rocking, and all other voodoo magic :)
If you can master this simple stroke, and use it corectly I promise your level of frustration honing "bad" bevels will drop substantially, and you will end up with much more even bevels :)
i am really feeling the rolling lately, but if the spine is straight (and the edge truly is a frown) at times i'll just use a normal a normal stroke like red96taQuote:
Originally Posted by Gamma
Gssixgun - question;
If the blade is warped, how does angling or positioning the heel forward (to the toe) keep the entire blade in contact with the stone?
I generally start with that stroke in most cases, just so I don't clip the shoulder - but with a problem spine/blade I still wind up having to roll the blade.
After I'm done cleaning the house I'll get to trying glens technique
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamma
Experience... You have to "Master" that system once you do it is way easier and way more accurate of a bevel.. But like any other stroke you have to learn how to use it same as you had to learn the Rocking X it took you practice.. The real difference is in the Feedback that you get along the entire edge as you hone, you can feel the problem areas, and correct them...,
A high majority of restores that I do are older Sheffield near wedges, I also end up with many of them to hone, most have been abused with "Honing Gymnastics" and have multiple bevels.. I can actually feel the "Bumpity Bump" as they slide down the hone.. You can hone around them and leave the same probelms, but sharpen the very edge, or you can correct the edge and eliminate those issues.. By using the 45 degree stoke correctly you are left with a smooth even bevel, and the real benefit is that once you learn it your honing is actually easier....
Please don't take my word for it just try it yourself, once you get the stroke adjusted right, you will feel it for yourself...
Alex/philadelph, Charlie/Spazola, and myself all have videos of basically the same stoke used on smiling edges it also works for warps etc: watch all of them and then adapt it to your needs... There are slight differences in all our styles but the principle is the same
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylerbrycen
Tyler, sounds like you've got a lucky wife!! Keep on keepin on!!
Regards,
Howard
One thing I would encourage you guys to do is to watch the water displacement as you are making your strokes across the stone. Many times this will show you where you are not keeping the blade flat throughout your strokes. I have seen many many guys learning to hone who think they are keeping the razor flat across the stone and are not. The 45 degree angle X stroke that Glen is talking about is a very good alternative, especially for one that already has some uneven wear on it.
Have fun.
On moving the water, I also watch for a little undercut of the water. An even unset bevel can move water evenly but the bevel is still not set. FWIW
Regards,
Howard
Most of the blades I get in that people think are warped are really not. What has happened is that because they have been honed with uneven pressure, the wear is uneven. Can't put the steel back on and in most cases a little pressure with circles can get them back into service with a new bevel. In severe cases and I have seen thousands and thousands of them the 45 degree angle and the rolling X are excellent tools to get the job done. In most cases unless you really layer up with tape, you will still get a reflection of the uneven wear on the spine in the bevel. This throws a lot of new guys honing as they pay too much attention to how this looks. You are actually trying to establish a good bevel at the edge vs. redesigning the bevel to look the same across the top of it.
Have fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamma
This usually is indicative of a more serious problem. You can really see what is going on when the razor wear is like this with the naked eye on examination or with the use of a magic marker. I find this a lot with new guys who use tape and then extremely flatten out bevels unevenly. In most cases, it is a matter of recognizing it and getting rid of the steel on the high parts by concentrating your pressure on them with circles and then blending the area with X strokes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirStropalot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
Read that part again, fix the issue then blend it all together :tu that deserved a bit more than a simple +1 hehehe
In going to do Lynns famous circles and I'll try glens heal leading and if I still can't seem to get the edge right I'll send to glen probly or Lynn which ever and let u guys have a crack at it do u can tell me what u think of the blade
Bumpity bump - hehe... I've been calling that sensation 'bumples' for a long while, and I've always hesitated telling anyone about that because I thought they would think I'm nuts.
Removing the bumples was how I round using heel-forward in the first place.
Before that I was working with an "S" or snake type stroke... but that just kept messing with the scratch patterns...
Ok - so - if I got this right - then what Gssixgun is saying with using the heel-forward stroke on a blade that isn't lying flat on the stone is about evening out the spinewear... so then the blade will contact the stone across the entire length. If that's right - then I get it.
Yes if you want to work out the spine, you can also just use 2 layers of tape and work on the edge...
Please understand that there is no "one" fix all, each razor is different, so you have to adapt the Heel forward stroke to fit each razor, as you get used to the motion you are going to find that you can adapt a rolling motion along with the Heel forward stroke..and it will give you the best of both worlds :)
The advice about watching the bead of water will help you find the right stroke, you can use a magic marker but myself I like watching the water and working by the feel of the steel :) when it goes to a nice smooth feel I know I am getting someplace...
Ok.... I'm not questioning u glen I just have questions if I use two layers of tape won't I create a micro bevel
Yes Tyler you will in theory,, but Gamma and I are not actually discussing your specific razor "at this point in time" we are discussing the use of the stroke...
As to your specific razor, if you had been using no tape or one layer then yes you would be cutting a smaller bevel, it is very hard to tell without seeing the razor and/or honing the razor,, All we can actually do on here is give advice as best as possible and use our past experience with solving similar problems from your description.... that leaves a ton or variables open :(
Perfect - I was a little confused earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Most of all of this is exactly what I've been doing for a while now - I guess its just a matter of language and syntax.
Well I official give up I get the heal and toe to pass the TNT off the 1k but u can feel it grab on the heal and I ride it all the way to the toe. And it grabs than I get to the middle and it glides on by and grabs on the toe so I'm frustrated
Ok, well I know I've not got near the experience of the ones you paid attention to. haha. That said: Any time I had an issue in the middle of the blade, but not the ends, it was a frown. Anyhow if it makes you feel any better, I've removed almost the entire "Lather well, I'll Shave welll" etching off this little WB razor I've been working on and it's still not sharp either. It's funny how these little pieces of metal can confound us so completely sometimes. Better luck tomorrow I hope.
In good light, put the razor edge down onto a flat surface and then get eye level with the bevel and see how it looks (rock the edge back and forth if you want). It should be blatantly obvious whether or not the edge is frowning.
Attachment 95369Attachment 95370 here is a pic of the razor hopefully that will help out
That's one seriously wavy looking edge, no wonder you're having trouble with it. I can't comment on how to fix it, though. I've not worked on one like that before.
I think it's just a smile but I could be wrong
Maybe glen might popback on here and give me some advice on what to do
I can give you an explanation. When you angle the razor, along with x-stroke you are effectively honing more 'along the edge', close to having the razor perpendicular to the hone and just pulling it across. Of course you're using primarily the edge of the hone to go along the bevel. The advantage of an angled razor with x-stroke vs. just pulling the razor perpendicular to the hone is that you move the edge across different sections of the hone i.e. fresh honing surface throughout the stroke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamma
The thing with curvature on the edge no matter if due to warp or smile is that you have to hone it one point at a time, as the hones are generally flat, and thus cannot be in contact with more than one point of the edge at the same time. That's just basic geometry.
So that angled x-stroke is the best solution to draw the whole razor's edge across the edge of the hone (the hone edge is the only thing that can do the the concave side).
I guess that may be more explanation than you wanted, but that's really why it works as well as it does.
I just scanned most of the replies and I didn't see much about the stones used, have you tested them for flat? An ever so slight dip in a stone can give you fits in the middle of a blade.
So I'll need to do nothing ur heal foward strokes to hone this specific razor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylerbrycen
No !!! You have to even that out... once it is even then the edge will even up
Either straighten the edge out, or smooth up the smile
Also we can't see the spine very well to tell what is going on with that..
Hey, thanks. Actually - it's not more explanation than I wanted. Basically, you've just reinforced what Glen and Lynn have already said, and which is basically what I have found to work in my own honing experiences.Quote:
Originally Posted by gugi
You just wrote it a different way and that's always appreciated - I don't always understand everything everyone puts down in these little boxes.
Attachment 95398Attachment 95399
There are some pics of the spine hope that helps
I really think if you correct the wavy in the edge, that you should be OK. Why don't you let me know if you have some time this week and I'll get on Skype and see if we can't help you out. The blade really doesn't look that bad and should not take a ton of work to get shavable beyond just going through the learning experience and not over thinking or overdoing each step.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylerbrycen
Have fun
oh snap! I'd take Lynn up on that offer in a heartbeat if I were you, Tyler. From looking at the other pics, you've definitely got a wave going on. I have no idea what the issue is, but you'll probably learn more about fixing blades in 10 minutes talking to Lynn than you would in a month of working on it yourself.
