Jnat Honing nightmares

For the most part, I use a Chosera 1k, Norton 4/8k, and normally and Escher or a Coticule as my finisher. I get great results each and every time. Of course, there are the occasional problem blades, like a stainless steel western style Japanese blade that's prone to microchipping, but that's another thread. Sometimes, I'll take one of the blades and do 10 lapps on SRD's wool felt with .50 diamond, or crox, but that's rare. Usually my blade is smooth as silk coming off my Escher.

I need help from the experienced Jnat user's here. I used to be able to use these stones with little or no trouble, as of late, I'm having wierd trouble shaving off them in one direction, for me that's ATG, or from the base of my neck, to my jawline, then from the jawline up to my cheekbone. It leaves stubble each and every time. Of course I stretch, and do the pre shave ritual. It's the edge coming off various Jnats. Nakayama Maruichi Asagi for one, and Ozuku Asagi for another. I've tried several different razors.

The blades I'm using are shave ready, and should be able to go to the Jnat. I've even gone as far as taking them to a 12k, then a 16k, then the Jnat. I've done everything imaginable from water, to dry, to slurry, etc, a few strokes, lot's of strokes...etc...As far a the blade goes, I use hardly any weight at this point, I'd say it's the weight of the blade. As far as "feeling" for me that's hard on stones so fine.
I watch the water break over the blade, and use other indicators.

With The Ozuku, it was lapped with a DMT, then finished up to 1000 grit wet sandpaper, then rubbed with a Kiita. It has a glass finish w/speckles in it, and golden clouds. it's a very nice stone. The Nakayama asagi was also finished in this manner, but I recently raised a slurry on it with a well worn dmt 325, to see if that helped...(it didn't) When i say well worn, I mean, all it's capable of is bearly raising a slurry. It's lapped hundreds and hundreds of stones. Now, it's just a slurry generator. It's not aggresive at all. I do not have an Atoma, and i really don't want to buy one unless it's guaranteed to change my results.

Has anyone else had similar problems? I'd like to hear your results, or even how you use your Jnat. Again, KISS. I'm not Japanese.
I don't understand all the lingo, so please, I appreciate anyone who takes the time to respond, but try and make it in terms anyone can understand. If you say "Pre Polisher" Explain what that is exactly, so a new guy reading know's what grit or what type of stone that is. Also, If you say "Tomonagura" say, it's a slurry stone, or piece of the original stone. I'm sure they'll be lot's of new guys reading as well, and may not understand.


Since these stones have solid reps on the forum, I assume it must be me. The Nakayama Maruichi Asagi is one of the legandary OS hones. and The Ozuku is from our Max.

I can most definitely hone blades, I've been doing my own for years. I do not know all the Jnat lingo, so please explain in layman's terms if you can, I'd apprciate it. Ultimately, I'd like to update our Wiki to include all these Jant terms, and have a place for people to go to get info, instead of shopping around various blogs, and sites.

From the top:

Left to right. Nakayama Maruichi w/Maruka stamp Asagi (Nihon Kamisori), wood base
Shoududani Asagi
Nakayama Maruichi Asagi (Nihon Kamisori) The crack cannot be felt while honing. wood base

Another pic of the Maruka hone.

Golden Cloud Ozuku Asagi

(same 3 stones, wet)

The Nak Maruichi Asagi prior to crack and lapping w/kanji


I just realized I posted that all of these stones were giving me trouble. That was incorrect. It was the Ozuku basically. The Maruichi was always tempermental, I just forgot how slow it was....

Quote:

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I used to be able to use these stones with little or no trouble

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I don't have much experience with these so I may be out of line, but I still want to suggest you go back to doing whatever you were doing before

That is a nice set of hones you have there :)

I am very happy with my Escher. I get a nice smooth, comfortable shaving edge, It's just that these Jnats have me stumped...It makes no sense, at least to me....

Thanks....

:bowWhat a beautiful series of stones!!! I am just a beginner, but I was told to look at my J-Nat at a 10° angle. There should be a mirror reflection. If there is no such reflection the stone is NOT ready for use. I hope this helps. I use a Shoubudani Aisa and so far I'm a happy camper. Good luck and thank you for your honesty and integrity.

So as far as speaking in layman's terms I'm your man because I don't know any of the lingo either. I have a jnat that was sold to me as a "Ozuku Kiita type 100 Lv 5". It is much more brown in color than the ones in your pictures and I can tell you it is very hard. It came with a slurry stone of the same type and it is so slow at creating slurry that i have to add water 3-4 times to get enough.

I had not used it all that much and did most of my finishing on a Naniwa 12k. But recently several of my blades were in need of a touch up so I decided to get out the jnat and see what happened. I ended up with very good results despite my relative lack of honing skills. Here's what I did:

- worked up as much slurry as I had patience to do
- worked in sets of about 12, diluting each set. weight of the blade only
- tried to keep the slurry for as many sets as I could, maybe 4-6
- finished with 5-6 sets on just water

In the end I would estimate that I did somewhere between 125-180 strokes, trying to concentrate on a perfect, light stroke each time. So far I'm 4 for 4 with excellent results, a Puma, C-Mon, Magnum and a Jung. They were all shave ready at the time, just not quite 'there'. They all ended up giving scary good shaves, very smooth. I was actually very surprised given my newbie status as a honer. But it has worked 4 times so far, who'd of thunk it?

So as if the nature of natural stones and their inevitable non-consistency goes, here is one more disclaimer. I try to get just the right amount of Makers Mark in me during the honing session. In my mind this creates the perfect zen attitude thereby making me the stone rather than the blade.

So there you have it.....

I have not had a similar issue, but perhaps we can sort out a few things by elimination...?

You used to get good edges off all of these stones until recently? If that is true, then something has changed recently. Either you, the stones, or both.

First, I would forget about the nagura honing thing - as far as I can tell the technique uses (mainly) slurry from the various nagura and only really uses the stone itself as a base until the end when it becomes activated using its own slurry, which they call Tomonagura. To me the process is simply a slightly higher grit mirror of what we all do (in terms of grit progression). It sounds to me by your description that the issue is with the stone itself, so the whole nagura honing thing will still fall down at the final stage anyway if what you are saying holds up.

As you use a Jnat, or lap it, or both, new layers are revealed. This is particularly noticeable with Suita but as far as I am aware is also true of the other Jnats. So, one obvious guess is that a new, not so optimal, layer has been revealed. The problem with this theory is that it appears that all your stones simultaneously and without exception, revealed a bad layer or surface with bad particulates or whatever. That of course is highly improbable and therefore most likely not the case.

This leaves two possible reasons (for me - other people may see other reasons). One, you are somehow contaminating your stones - you mention the DMT is old - do they lose diamonds? It sounds weird and unlikely though - your Jnats seem quite hard and even when my Atoma just exploded diamond bits, none of them embedded in the stones.

So the only other thing I can think of is something has changed with you. If it is happening across all your Jnats, it seems the most likely. Have you changed anything in your honing recently? Have you gotten a new stone in the progression? Have you started raising slurries when before you didn't (I've noticed slurry edge bombardment can make an edge feel dull until you strop the beejeebers out of it)?

Anyway, they are just some thoughts. The thing that makes me think it is not a stone issue is that it is happening on 3 separate stones. Your best bet would to be to construct some controlled experiments to help isolate the issue, one variable at a time, and see where that leads you. Could be a very interesting exercise actually. :)

Good luck!

James.

How long has it been since you've lapped/refreshed the stones? Not necessarily down to 400 or so, but maybe just a quick touchup on 1200. I've had problems w/ this myself on mine--my tomonagura is much softer than my main stone (lvl 5+), so the stone doesn't really ever get its surface refreshed between honings. Over time, what I've noticed is mine can actually glaze over w/ probably a mix of swarf & dead slurry particles, turning it into almost a burnishing plate. The resulting edges are smooth, but lack sharpness. On mine, I rub my main stone w/ a coticule slurry stone--my guess is the garnets are harder than the Jnat binder & so the surface gets refreshed while still keeping the surface smooth & shiny. After doing this, the stone's performance comes back. Might be worth a shot!

I've had this happen - I was able to shave WTG just fine, but ATG was not possible.
You might have a different issue than I did, but try this on one blade you are having issues with.

Strop on linen 10x.
Strop on leather 20x
Then - run the edge over a Crox pasted strop about 20-40x . If you're using a linen hanger, make sure it's super taught.
Clean the blade off with running water, paper towel, etc... make sure all the crox is totally gone before going forward.
Strop on linen 20x
Go to your hardest stone, bring up a decent Mejiro slurry and start to hone from that point on, and finish as you normally do.
If you don't have a Majiro Nagura, try going to the 8k and then move up to the Jnat.

You *may* have a micro wire edge that's folding over when you go ATG. Laps on Crox should be able to get rid of it and then you should be able to get to your edge.

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Originally Posted by PA23-250

How long has it been since you've lapped/refreshed the stones? Not necessarily down to 400 or so, but maybe just a quick touchup on 1200. I've had problems w/ this myself on mine--my tomonagura is much softer than my main stone (lvl 5+), so the stone doesn't really ever get its surface refreshed between honings. Over time, what I've noticed is mine can actually glaze over w/ probably a mix of swarf & dead slurry particles, turning it into almost a burnishing plate. The resulting edges are smooth, but lack sharpness. On mine, I rub my main stone w/ a coticule slurry stone--my guess is the garnets are harder than the Jnat binder & so the surface gets refreshed while still keeping the surface smooth & shiny. After doing this, the stone's performance comes back. Might be worth a shot!

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They're both freshly lapped, but I have heard about rubbing a coti on them, I'll give this a try as well.

Hi Zib,

Anyone who has NOT had a blade or stone baffle them either hasn't done much or is willfully ignorant. I've had a few blades the Nakayama Asagi just kept leaving harsh - which was taken care of by the thuri.

What I'm wondering is about some specifics on what the 'weird' issues are. Without knowing something of the condition, its hard to offer something helpful (if its possible). Would the difficulty be a sharpness issue? Harsh edge turning carnivorous? I've had blades that defy most solutions, but don't know what target we're aiming at yet. The ones that consistently defy my asagi & most other rocks is the Swedish Tornbloms. Other than those, a few random extra hollows seem to want to stay too crisp for me. What are you running into?