sharpening question. Please help

Hello,

I am new to straight razor shaving. I have a DOVO 5/8 silver steel which I got new a few weeks ago. I have been attempting to hone it myself using a Norton 4k/8k, and stropping using a dovo leather/linen strop. From the start I have been able to shave with the razor without cuts etc, but not really my entire face. In the beginning the razor would pull quite a bit and would just completely stick in my chin hair. Then I began a series of 4 honing attempts. The first attempt I just did five full passes on the 8k side and I got no result. The second I did two passes 4K, 5 passes 8K and also had no result. The third I did 7(I think) passes on the 4K, 5 more passes on the 8K and by the time I was done shaving I had the worst shave yet I think. Today I tried the pyramid and did passes 4k/8k in this order: 3/3, 1/3, 1/5. My shave today was better (and my technique is surely improving) but the razor still pulls, especially when I tried a second pass accross the grain and it doesn't cut that well even on the first pass. I shaved my entire face but it's not smooth or at all even. I do think the razor is sharper but I want to sharpen it more and I don't know what to do next. Could one of the experts here please help me out with some advice on how to continue on my own?

I am new at this and I have a million other questions but I figured I would just start with this post. I have been reading the forums here and they have been of great interest to me. Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.


PS I would like to sharpen this razor with this hone. Buying new razors and hones are not an option right now for me. Thanks again.

-------Michael

In general, new razors are not really shave-ready from the factory, so your experience isn't unusual.

Your norton is completely adequate for getting a razor into shaving shape, but you do need to make sure it is lapped completely flat. Get a sheet of 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper, soak your norton in water for 10-15 minutes, then wet the sandpaper and place it paper-side down on your countertop and rub both sides of your hone on it until they are completely flat (mark the hone with a grid of pencil marks so you can see where it's being ground off). Then scrub your hone hard with a wet washcloth to get all the sandpaper grit off of it.

Once you've done that, you're ready for the honing. There's a file in the help section that describes the pyramid system, use the aggressive pyramids until it's sharp. Use as little pressure as possible towards the end. Keep the 4k side of the norton puddling with water.

I think that the pyramid as it is presented in the Help Files should be adhered to first and then, if it doesn't work out after a few (dozen sometimes) tries, you can think about altering it.The only thing I usually do to alter the standard pyramid is make it smaller ie. only going up to 10/5 or 5/5. As a system, it really does work and altering it is for advanced honing.

X

X gave you a great pointer. You could apply the pyramid to get just about any blade shave-ready. I'm at the point where I alter it a lot, sometimes skip steps, sometimes add steps in order to save time, but I still think in terms of the pyramid.

To me your post is indicitive of a big problem. Any time you hone, the razor should slowly get better. I think the advice on here is right on but I'm going to suggest buying a $10 microscope from RadioShack. Look at the edge at 60x and tell us what you see. This takes some practice, so be patient.

It sounds to me like the razor is lifting off the hone, or is overhoned? Whatcha think?

I'd like to know more about what your doing when your doing these passes. Honing isn't just about moving the razor down the hone. Are you using a x pattern or using a side to side motion (and if so with the toe leading)? What kind of pressure are you using?

More importantly perhaps, what happens when you wet your thumbnail and run the edge over your nail? Is it smooth?

If it is smooth, keep honing (pyramiding) until its smooth AND bites into the nail.

Lap as suggested, get a microscope soon or atleast consider it, and for now go back to some pyramding using a little pressure to keep the razor flat, then slowly back off on the pressure.

I'd also like to suggest, although its not what you want to hear, that on at atleast one stage you did too many 4K passes. Its a point of view that you need to consider for your honing education. Once a razor is shaving ok I would suggest only 1 x 4K pass followed by some 8K passes (I like to use about 5 x 8k and sometimes finish with even more). Although, with time, most honemiesters know exactly how many 4K passes a razor needs via an edge evaluation, most new honers do not. I would suggest from here, when the razor gets close again, that you choose a less aggressive approach and be patient. Its a slower process, and some will disagree, but its a little safer.

So, once the edge gets close again try just 1/5 test, 1/5 test, 1/5 test until things get better vic jumping to 7/5 with a razor that is just pulling.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

To me your post is indicitive of a big problem. Any time you hone, the razor should slowly get better.

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This is true in a sense, but it may not get better in a way that shows up in the shave. If his bevel is too steep then it may take a few more laps than he's done to correct the bevel, so while the razor is getting "better" until the new bevel works its way to the fin he won't see any improvement in his shave. If his hone isn't flat then it simply may not be able to get his razor shaving sharp at all (when this happened to me it didn't show up on the microscope).

When I do passes on the stone I just pass it straight accross the stone with the edge leading. I try to apply as little pressure as possible but some pressure has to be applied otherwise the blade won't stay flat or straight as I am sharpening. I don't lead any other part of the blade, just go straight across.

I have done the thumbnail test after my first two sharpening sessions and assuming I did it correctly, the razor passed. It passes smoothly over my thumbnail but doesn't bite, or leave any mark. When should this be done? Does one hone and then try the thumbnail test, or do you have to strop first?

I have tried the hanging hair test after each honing and the razor doesn't pass it. My understanding is that an overhoned razor would pass the hanging hair, so I am assuming that I haven't overhoned.

Some people are mentioning the bevel. If anyone could include a very basic description of this and the different factors affecting honing for a beginner (me) that would be much appreciated.

-----Michael

The bevel is basically the honed part of an edge.. Depending on the grind and the way you hone it (more pressure makes it wider), it can be between "barely noticeable by naked eye" and a milimeter or so.
When honing a new blade, you start with a bit of pressure (about 2lbs) and then gradually reduce it. One quick way to establish the initial bevel is a bit of circular honing and then x-pattern honing on a 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper.
Speaking of which, check out the help files on the x-pattern. IIRC, Nenad (superfly) made a video showing it. Check out the help files.
If you take a magnified look at the bevel, you'll see a scratch-pattern on it. The closer the spacing of the scratching, the finer the honing of the blade. As you go up in grits, the scratches get closer together.
Here's a quick way to get an edge honed from scratch, a combination of Nenad's method, Bill's method and the pyramid...
1) Place a piece of 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper on top of your Norton (wet ofcourse) and do some circular honing (equal strokes and 2lbs on pressure on both sides) until you develop a relatively even bevel.
2) Do about 10 straight across passes along the sand-paper, with the heel leading at about a 30 degree angle and 10 x-pattern strokes, gradually reducing the pressure.
3) Go to the Norton 4k and do about 20 straight across (heel leading) passes, where you roll the point of pressure from heel to toe, almost neglecting the middle and about 15 x-pattern. Again, you are gradually reducing the pressure from 2lbs to almost nothing.
4) Repeat step 3 with 8k.
5) By this time the blade is close to being there and one almost no pressure pyramid does the trick. If it doesn't, you either repeat it or do a couple of 1-5s on the Norton and test again. For this, I do the x-pattern.
6) Shave test
7) If satisfactory, go to your fine finishing hone or pasted paddle strop for a few polishing strokes. If not, go back to step 5.
This method as described is mostly for full hollows. You'd have to modify it for heavier grinds, which will take longer and more strokes at each stage. It will initially remove more metal but not enough to notice over the lifetime of a razor. To reduce the hone wear, I always tape up the spine with electrical tape for stages 1-4. Randy keeps the tape on for every stage of the honing process and even for refreshing the blades. Taping is optional as it's mostly aesthetic.

My Razor has a bevel along the edge of the razor. Some parts seem slightly wider than others and it's shiny from end to end and the entire width.

What is Cirdular honing?

I use the X pattern on the strop because it isn't wide enough for the whole razor, but the stone is so I just go straight across. What would the benefit be of going any way but straight across?

I am hesitant to start out by lapping my stone, using courser grits, or advanced honing techniques because I am a beginner and don't feel comfortable with that sor t of stuff yet.

Thanks for all the replies so far

--------Michael

Lapping a stone is no more complicated than sanding a block of wood. Nothing at all to be nervous about.

]I] My Razor has a bevel along the edge of the razor. Some parts seem slightly wider than others and it's shiny from end to end and the entire width. [/I]

This comes from uneven honing, most likely an uneven honing surface, I.E. a hone that needs to be lapped.
1) Draw a 5x3 line grid on both hone surfaces
2) Place a piece of 1000-grit wet-dry sandpaper on a wet smooth glass/marble/ceramic 1x1' plate (about $6 @ Home Depot), pour some water over it.
3) Do figure-8s until the lines disappear.

What is Cirdular honing?
1) Make sure both the edge and the spine are touching the honing surface.
2) Move the blade in circles... Same number on both sides of the blade.

I use the X pattern on the strop because it isn't wide enough for the whole razor, but the stone is so I just go straight across. What would the benefit be of going any way but straight across?

1) It helps keep you focused on honing with even pressure over every part of the blade.
2) If the honing surface is a bit uneven, all parts of the blade still get the same amount of exposure to the hone.

I am hesitant to start out by lapping my stone, using courser grits, or advanced honing techniques because I am a beginner and don't feel comfortable with that sor t of stuff yet.

The techniques that I outlined will make your honing job easier and results quicker to come. It's your choice whether you'd like to have an advantage or not.

The Bevel was like that when I got the razor. Does that mean it's defective? Does the bevel have to be totally even before the razor will be sharp?

I'm assuming that the circular honing will be to even out the bevel. Can I do this on the waterstone? If I have to use 1000 grit then can I use a stone or does it have to be sandpaper?



Thanks

-------Michael

Whoever tried to hone that blade did a terrible job of it. In some cases it CAN shave with an uneven bevel, but you're aiming for 2 scenarios:
1) Completely even -- straight edge
or
2) A little bit more wear on the heel and toe -- smiling edge.

You could use a 1k grit hone but I don't have one and the sandpaper cuts faster than anything else I've got. If you keep the pressure even, you will be able to even out the bevel.

I have some razors that have uneven bevels and they are great shavers. Even my first shave ready razor from a guru doesn't have the most even bevel around, but what a fine shaver it is.

Since your first sentence in your post mentions that you are new to straight razors then you must realize that there is a learning curve to everything that you are doing. Even if your razor is keen you still will get some areas that won't be shaved close yet alone comfortable. There is a lot to learn in the technique of shaving with a straight. Just learning to strop properly is not that difficult, but even this step will improve with practice. So will finding the correct blade angle with each razor. Just keep reading and keep shaving. Shave the easy area's first and finish off with a DE or whatever to complete the shave. It won't be long before you will get a complete, close and comfortable shave with the straight.

Glen

Thanks to everyone for all the replies. I'm going to go out today and see if I can get a small cheap microscope, some various sandpaper etc and then get back to work on this. I'll lap the stone, do some honing then get back to all with the results.

-----Michael

Make sure that the sandpaper is ok for wet use and good luck!