A beginners honing thread. (april giveaway)

Hi Everybody.

My name is Frank and I was the winner of the 2012 beginner honing set giveaway. This thread begins with my first attempts at honing all the way to whereverthehell this honing thing takes me. I'll be posting lots of pictures (eventually) and be asking lots of questions (immediately).

So, onto the razors...

I've just gone through my first full progression. Overall it has taken me roughly 5 hours to fully hone my first razor.. Firstly details on the equipment:

A set of Naiwa 1k, 5k, 8k, 12k stones finished with CrOx paste on leather. Then stropped on linen and leather alone.

A 5/8 Wosty pipe razor. Quarter hollow? (I'm not entirely sure of the grind since my experience has been with full-hollow blades.)

Result? a hell of a lot better shave than I expected. it seems that the edge on my dominate hand was better than on the other hand. I tried using my TI 6/8 for comparison and it seed to shave evenly on both sides.

Questions:

1. The hones were lapped on a DMt 320 lapping plate. I noticed after lapping the 1k stone it had a few deep circular scratches in it, looking more closely at the DMT I notices a streak of slurry leading to a burr in the surface. I removed the burr and lapped out the scratches but upon very close inspection it's still leaving a very shallow scratch in the hone. I cannot feel the scratch with my fingers and it only just barely shows up as the stone collects swarf. Is this something to be concerned about? if it is is there something I can do with the DMt to reduce/fully remove said burr?

2. I actually had to go through the full progression twice as it seemed by the way the water pattern moved on the hone that I had not correctly set the bevel. The Wosty is, obviously, a vintage blade and has more hone wear in the middle than the toe and the heel. I do not suspect a frown on the edge (particular because it seems the razor was restored once before I got it. Before honing I held to a true flat edge, blade down perpendicularly to check for a frown and didn't see one.) is the tendency of the razor to develop more of a bevel in the middle something I should do some circles to correct?

3. I was watching the way the water moved in front of the blade and noticed through the first progression it made a sort of two humped pattern on the 12k stone, Sort of like a the letter "B" with the spine of the "B" being the razors edge against the hone. After taking it back down from the 1k through the progression the water pattern changed to the letter "D" I assume that the depression in the water was because the top and bottom of the razor were making full contact with the cutting surface while something in the middle was not. Correct?

4. Should I try a pyramid progression for my next attempt?

I will be keeping log of how many strokes/type ect on my next pass through. For now I just wanted to lap the stones and get a feel for what it a razor on a stone is like. Overall I am pleased with this. THE SWMBO thinks its strange I spend 5 hours looking at a rock.

-Paintman

p.s. my bathroom looks like a rock quarry and shaving supply shop exploded.

Its my understanding that on DMT 325's you should rub a screw driver along it to tame the teeth of the diamonds. I do not have one yet, just what I read. I will be picking one up next pay so lemme know how that turns out!

To remove the scratches you could get some 400 grit wet dry sand paper and a glass/marble plate and do a few figure 8s until the pattern goes away.

I hone by feeling on the stone, no set pattern, and Im no expert so I will let others handle those questions.

+1 to alb1981--new DMTs have some high spots. You can also abuse it against a cinder block for a while. Also good advice above RE further smoothing your hones.

RE your SWMBO... maybe we need a thread on the site for puzzled spouses. A support group, or something.

Good luck, and congrats on your win. I enjoyed your story, and had a similar upbringing. All the men who could flee, fled. So did I, when I could.

When I originally prepared the lapping plate I did run the screwdriver over it a few times, but no more than 2-3 passes. Last night I ran it back and forth about 10. In addition I lapped the hones again with some 600 grit sandpaper on glass. For the most part, the hones appear scratch-less save for a few small circles on the 12k. Again, these cant be felt and only just barely seen. Is it worth lapping then out totally?

I also took the wosty through the progression again. This time paying more attention to the heel and toe. I also spend a bit more time on the 5 and 8k really focusing on keeping my technique consistent in both directions. It seemed to help to switch the hone position from "left/right" to "towards/away". I also inspected the razor between sets of 10 lapps with my 16x loop to look at the polish of the cutting edge. Finishing with 10 passes on leather with CrOx and 30 laps on linen and then 60 on leather.

I also think after I stropped it last time I might have rolled the edge a bit (which might have something to do with why it cut better on one side than the other?) I'm not used to the 5/8 of the Wosty and it requires even less pressure when stropping since the pivot point is so much closer to the edge. Who would have thought a 1/8 of an inch would make so much of a difference?

The shave itself was infinitely better. My beard just gave up when the razor hit it, no resistance. Sort of like my best friend in college when his girlfriend said he couldn't go out drinking with us any more….

Not that is matters but I did manage to get a HHT-3 near the center of the razor. Not at all on the ends though. But again the shave is the the thing and it certainly cut better than anything I've used thus far.

For the visible scratches, if you feel feedback on the blade when honing lap them out. If its smoth sailing, no catching or grinding then no worries.

If you rolled the edge, you wouldnt be shaving! lol
more than likely the culprit on one side cutting better is the positioning or dominant hand issues. Are you able to get a good shave from both hands? when its not cutting properly what does the positioning feel like in your hand? did you open or close the angle too much? keep an eye on what is and isnt working for you.

300 SR shaves under my belt and I still have issues with dominant hand vs non dominant hand. You just learn how to overcome via other tactics!

Glad to hear your shave was better!!
I dont put faith in the HHT, Shave is all that matters :)

keep up the good work!

I don't particularly any "catching" and there was certainly no grinding. I'll pay extra close attention to the feedback on the blade through the next progression.

It's possible my positioning was not great on that first shave. Typically I am able to get a good shave with both hands without issues, but again, I usually use a 6/8 Their-Issard which is also an extra hollow. The Wosty is smaller and also a quarter hollow. On the first shave after the initial "ouch" of the tug, I did close my angle a bit and when for more of a scything stroke, but it only helped marginally. When I switched but to the TI for comparison, I had no trouble. perhaps I had honed/polished more on one side than the other?

Hi Paintman,

Yes, it's possible that you're honing one side slightly differently than the other. I know that my own return stroke is more effective than my away stroke. What I don't know, and I hope someone else will chime in, is if this makes one side of the blade shave better than the other side.

As Alb1981 says, scratches on your hones will not cause issues. It's high spots on them, or contaminating grit, that can mess you up. It's pretty hard to get a high spot on a hone, but if you're pyramid honing you do want to rinse the blade and maybe even the hones between passes.

If you're getting better hht results in the middle of the blade than at the heel and toe, you're running the long-term risk of honing in a frown. Watch videos about rolling-x strokes, where you give the heel and toe a little extra contact on the stone. This is what you have to do when honing a smiling blade, and it's what you can do to make sure they are getting the same action as the middle. I had to use it today on a blade that doesn't really smile, but its heel and toe lift up just enough that the regular x was leaving them behind. I know that my stroke usually favors the heel, because that's where I get my best hht results.

Every once in a while, there's a big blowup on the site over whether the hht is useful, whether it means anything to the quality of the shave. My own take is that it does, but that you have to take the care to calibrate your own hht, and we all have to accept that different peoples' results are not comparable. Then we can all be less crabby about it :-)

Here's how I've calibrated my own. 1) Choose a replicable hair. I use only my white chest hairs, and try to nick out ones of the same length each time. 2) Do the hht on your shave-ready blade, after you've stropped it and before you shave with it. This is as good as it gets--unless your honing and stropping techniques improve. 3) After you've shaved, but before you give the blade its putting-away stropping, do the hht again. Note how the one shave has degraded the edge. In my experience, anyway, the effect is detectable. 4) Give the blade its putting-away stropping, and repeat the hht. You should notice a subtle improvement. 5) Next time you get out the blade, but before you strop it, hht. Then strop it and hht again. Depending on your storage conditions, you might notice a post-stropping improvement as you've cleaned off the bit of oxidation from the edge.

These steps gave me a sense of the hht's sensitivity and of how much wear and tear the blade experiences in its normal use. Yes, the ultimate measure of the edge is how nicely and gently it shaves, but a personally familiar hht is a good way to probe it.

Best wishes to you

Paintman congrats on the win,
Perhaps you can use a sharpie on the bevel of the razor to adjust your honing stroke so that the entire blade touch the hone as you go,
since you mention the heel and toe wasnt as sharp!
Maybe a heel forward with a little swoop on the hone to the toe sometimes is all you need.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martin103

Paintman congrats on the win,
Perhaps you can use a sharpie on the bevel of the razor to adjust your honing stroke so that the entire blade touch the hone as you go,
since you mention the heel and toe wasnt as sharp!
Maybe a heel forward with a little swoop on the hone to the toe sometimes is all you need.

---

+1
Also if the blade's spine has a smile or doesnt lay totally flat when placed upside down on a flat surface I suggest you put it away for now, practice on a straight spine razor where no rolling or swooping are necessary until you get the basics if at all possible. When I first started I put a mean uneven beven on a smiling crookes and still feel terrible about it.
Good luck!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by epd

+1
Also if the blade's spine has a smile or doesnt lay totally flat when placed upside down on a flat surface I suggest you put it away for now, practice on a straight spine razor where no rolling or swooping are necessary until you get the basics if at all possible. When I first started I put a mean uneven beven on a smiling crookes and still feel terrible about it.
Good luck!

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This is a good point. I was relatively sure my TI and Wosty were straight and had no smile to them. When I set the blade down on a piece of glass I noticed BOTH blades had a slight smile. Perhaps this explains why I found it difficult to get an even bevel on the Wosty and found it equally difficult to get the TI as sharp on the heel/toe as the middle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Paintman

This is a good point. I was relatively sure my TI and Wosty were straight and had no smile to them. When I set the blade down on a piece of glass I noticed BOTH blades had a slight smile. Perhaps this explains why I found it difficult to get an even bevel on the Wosty and found it equally difficult to get the TI as sharp on the heel/toe as the middle.

---

In my opinion the bevel setting is 90 % of the honing game, that said it is very important to get the right stroke for the razor being honed.
Thats why i mention using a sharpie once you get the correct stroke that hits the entire blade you can successfully finish the razor using that
particular stroke.

So I went down to my local barber to get a hair cut today. I mentioned that I've just started honing razors and the guy gave me a dull red imp to sharpen for him! I just have to say that it's really a great thing to see that there are still people in this world who will trust you with their things. He's apparently had the thing since he went to barber school some 40 years ago. Still in the original scales. I'll post some pictures tomorrow.

Wouldnt hurt to bring your barber the stones and ask for a lesson! Assuming he knows how to hone... I would!

I'm interested in seeing the Red Imp. Many different manufacturers made Red Imps; I wish I knew more history of that razor. I've got a Case one (U.S. made), but have seen German ones as well. If yours is an American one and you haven't honed American steel yet, you're in for a new experience. It's enough harder than German steel that you'll notice it takes longer.

Best wishes