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Very, very new to straight shaving (getting some razors ready). On a small budget right now, so... to sharpen a blade can I use wet & dry sand paper as a hone (some how mounted to stay in place)? I figured I'd have to keep the (is it spine?) protected, then strop it? If so what grits and how?
Thanks,
Vinny
The sandpapers from the hardware store will not work as they're far too coarse. www.handamerican.com sells sandpapers that are suitably fine for razors, their 4000 grit and 9000 grit should be sufficient.
3m Lapping films also come in suitable grits, down to .3 micron. They do diamond abrasive microfinishing films too. Expensive but high quality. I have even washed the metal dust from mine and reused them.
Because they are plastic you can use water to 'stick' them to a flat surface like a piece of glass or marble. That will work to an extent with paper/latex based wet and dry sandpaper. So much less messy than 3m77 etc.
Handamerican sell a tacky adhesive that doesn't dry for a similar purpose, it's called supergrip.
Can this be used as a substitute for the Norton stones? It seems to me that if it is not necessary to hone that often, these would be a suitable substitution for those of us who are penny conscious.
How long does one sheet of wet/dry last at the 4000 level? Can you hone one razor many times? One sheet per razor per session?
I'm curious as to the process.
Would you follow the same pyramid pattern recommended?
I'm new to this and just have lots'a questions. :shrug:
http://members.cox.net/~yuzuha/jisgrit1.html
http://users.ameritech.net/knives/grits.htm
You could cut about 2 or 3 hone sized sheets from one piece of paper or film. I reuse my lapping film many times and it is still cutting, but it is not cheap either. I think if you care for a sheet of wet and dry it would certainly stand up to a few honing sessions, but it would depend on the pressure you are using hardness of the steel etc. Also you may slice into the paper, normally by catching the edge, so factor those failures in too.
Unless you're really destitute, I'd just bite the bullet and get a real hone. You'll be thanking yourself over and over again over the decades.
Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Firestart
I use both, and they both have advantages and disadvantages. Have you actually tried scary sharp Firestart?
I cannot afford a shapton 30k glass stone ($280 US and even more in the UK), but i can sure as hell afford a pack of £20 0.3 micron lapping film. I bet you could get it cheaper in the US too! So i have stones up to 6000 grit, but lapping film thereafter.
The sandpaper (aka scary sharp) obviously has a much lower initial investment. If you buy a glass 'chopping' board (these should never be used for chopping - destroy the knife edge) you have a very flat surface to do your honing on. It will never need lapped. You can also use a granite or marble flat surface. So it never needs maintenance in that sense, whereas waterstones need to be lapped or flattened periodically. You can pick up many different grades of sandpaper, or lapping film, which would be extremely expensive to replicate in stones. You can also make the sheet any size you want, it can be bigger than
However there is the possibility of slicing your sheet of paper, but then you can also gouge a stone.
Actually, now that i come to think of it, i cannot think of a reason not to try scary sharp. You will also be able to use it for your knives chisels etc.
So it is not that easy to dismiss the scary sharp system, but all that said i do not think you would regret buying a norton or other good stone, and i'm sure if you lost the SR bug, someone would take it off your hands.
I'm not saying that everyone should have a $300 shapton, but... $30 pair of Japanese slip-stones will get your razor up to the point where you can use abrasive pastes to get the finest edge possible. And if you're gouging sandpaper with your razors, then your technique is WAY off and you'll never get a blade shave ready.
The reason I haven't tried scary sharp (I only use 1k grit sandpaper to establish the initial bevel) is that I already have a few good hones and it isn't necessary.
For finer work, you can build a bench-hone for $10-15 in material and get 1lb of 0.5mic abrasive powder for $20 (going 3-way splits with Jason and David and that will last us a lifetime lol).
I can see this as maybe a good idea for the beginner like myself, that way i can ruin a $1.15 sheet of paper practicing my honing technique instead of gouging an 80 dollar hone and having to try and lap it. And then when the technique is narrowed down, move to the norton or slipstones.
This is beginning to spread paranoia :rant:
There's NO CHANCE of gouging your hone while honing a razor by accident. You'd have to do it on purpose. Even if you decide to give the gouge-honing method a try, you can always fix the hone by lapping it, so it won't be ruined.
got you man, didnt mean to upset ya, just making a newb assumption.:(
It wasn't you who got me upset. It was the fact that Ernest's misinformed horror stories about hone-gouging and the implication that a $280 Shapton is the only viable alternative to the scary sharp system actually got at least one person going. Here's some straight-up info:Quote:
Originally Posted by celticstone
1) For the 20GBP that you'd spend on some sandpaper that would be good for a bunch of honings you could get a pair of 4k/8k Japanese slip-stones or an 8k equivalent ceramic stone (ask Robert about those) that will last you for the rest of your life and enough money left over to buy a pint at the local pub.
2) These hones will get you up to the point of being able to go to abrasive pastes. $10 of leather, some rubber cement and a couple of MDS scraps (gratis) will get you a couple of bench hones or two-sided paddle strops. Handamerican sells 0.5 micron abrasive powder that can easily be combined with water or oil into a paste for about $24 for a POUND. That's lifetime supply for 3 people's honing needs.
3) For the same initial investment that you'd make for sand-paper you could have more reliable honing tools.
4) You cannot gouge a hone by accident while honing a razor. And even if you do, you can just lap the hone flat and still have enough of it left to last you a lifetime.
I tell ya what people. Don't listen to either of us, go try both systems for yourself and see what you like best.
Fact, Sandpaper can be used for honing. The investment required for each can be easily checked out by any member on the web.
I am not saying scary sharp is better for everyone. But you can check it out and decide for yourselves.
And firestart, you have totally munderstood my point about gouging. If you have bad technique you can gouge the stone or tear the paper. You say it is not possible to gouge the stone if you are doing things right. Sure, and it is not possible to nick the strop if you are doing it right, but it still happens to plenty of people!
Firestart tell me more about the 8k ceramic stones for $40 please.
Ernest, if a newb reads any of the help files on honing, he won't be using a technique that comes anywhere near the risk of gouging a hone.
As for the 8k ceramic hone, I saw it for sale @ Lee Valley for $36.50CA (which is about 18GBP). Here it is http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...28&cat=1,43072. I don't know how well that particular stone will work b/c Robert worked with Spyderco but I don't see why it wouldn't be comparable performance-wise. I've worked with 2x4 slip stones and got my first few blades shave ready exclusively with them before getting the Norton. They cost me about $30CA (15GBP). It's possible to get superb results from budget gear, so a $280 Shapton isn't the only alternative to scary sharp. However, it would be nice to have a set of those babies :nj
To the best of my knowledge the Scary Sharp System has never been fully utilized on straight razors by a large group of people. Most of us are unaware of where to purchase the higher grit 3M films. Keith at www.handamerican was one of the first to make available a full range of grits suitable for use on a razor. Much to my chagrin I have not yet used them.
The sandpaper may work and it would be an inexpensive test.
My hesitations about sandpaper stem from the experience I have had with it. Usually I use a 1000 grit wet/dry to remove nicks and old oxidised edges. That works well. The difficulty comes from the ease of gouging the sandpaper. Thankfully it is inexpensive.
I tried using a 2000 grit wet/dry as a substitute for a 4000 waterstone and then following that with a finer stone but that does not work. The reason why has to do with the ever so slight rounding of the edge that occurs with the sandpaper.
The sandpaper is composed of 3 parts
1. The backing material, which has a slight give
2. Resin or bonding agent, which may have a slight give
3. Abrasive grain
The rounding of the razors edge that occurs from the 2000 grit wet/dry is to much for a 8000 grit hone to overcome without a ton of time.
If the Scary Sharp System works, and it should, a person would need to use only sandpaper and no traditional hones. This is because of the "give" in the backing of the sandpaper and the resulting slight rounding of the edge. It would probably be advantageous to finish with abrasive pasted paddle strop's. With tha being said I can also see where a very practised touch would be required to avoid gouging the sandpaper.
It would be an inexpensive method to start with but the long term price advantage would be with the traditional hones.
(I really do have to try Keiths sandpapers!:hmmm:)