Maybe heresy, maybe just old news - finishing w/ stropping strokes

It must be the case that this has been explored, if not beat to death, but I started experimenting w/ stropping stroke finishes a few wks back. This started from using a method described for a BBW, which has produced consistently sharp (if a bit harsh) edges.
http://coticule.be/heritage.html?fil.../BBW-study.pdf
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So I thought I'd try finishing strokes on the other side of the stone in my hand. Hmmm. Nice edge.
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Then on a jnat (alot more strokes). Wow, nice edge.
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Then a thuri. another nice edge.

14 blades done this way, and I like the edges alot. If there's any boogie man named 'wire edge', he's yet to show up.

I post this, 'cause it seems inevitable that others have tried this and perhaps I can learn more about the strengths and weaknesses of the technique. I have overhoned one edge this way - didn't last through the whole shave, but just that one. Fewer strokes would seem the solution. If you've had experience w/ this technique, I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks in advance, Gents.

Well I don't tend to finish with a reverse stroke but I incorporate them throughout the honing process. You technically incorporate some level of reverse stroke when you do circles too. I've got no doubt you don't see too many wire edges this way, as the reverse stroke has traditionally been used as a way to remove a wire edge if it is present. I'd say the overhoning was probably not created by the reverse finishing strokes.

I think if it is working for you that is great. I suppose if you think about it technically what you've got there is a hard and inflexible version of a pasted leather strop. So I say go for your life. In the end it comes down to an edge and a face. If they meld it doesn't matter how you get there.

James.

About 30-40 years ago I knew a barber who did his last 2 laps on his finish hone with edge trailing, just like he stropped. I asked why and he said he was taught that method by another barber.

His razors were always very sharp.

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Originally Posted by Sticky

About 30-40 years ago I knew a barber who did his last 2 laps on his finish hone with edge trailing, just like he stropped. I asked why and he said he was taught that method by another barber.

His razors were always very sharp.

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Even on the coticules, with which I've had a harder time getting the sharpness, the edge-trailing stroke seems to give it all I could ask for. HHT went from performing at 1/2" from point of hold to 3/4". One of the edges, as mentioned, didn't last the whole shave, so it appears the elusive 'over honing' was found. 'Tried another Swedish blade earlier today with that technique on a very fast (on water) LPB coticule. The smoothness was heavenly & the sharpness was all you could ask for. 'Don't know why. It seems to be less sensitive to an imperfect stroke also. It continues to surprise me.

I learned that method for finishing knives originally. Just a few no pressure strokes in a lapping motion no more than 8 or 10 seemed to pull out the edge noticeably. It feels like I can get better bevel contact to the stone using a stropping motion with no pressure when I do razors but I am still less than 100 pieces honed so while it gives me a good end result it is likely with more time and experience there will be no advantage. With a really fine finishing stone I believe I can feel the steel settling to the stone as the edge comes to finish. It is similar to the adhesion of the rubber to a well lapped stone like they are just being sucked together.

It is probably all in my head but the result is very comfortable shaving edges. MMHV

I found the technique inconsistent. Ive found a few cool techniques that only worked intermittently.

I did quite a bit of experimentation after I came up with that 3-2-1 finish on the Shapton 30k which I tried in the first place because Don was using stropping strokes to finish on his... After that I pretty much tried it on everything and every stone I had...

Always searching for a bit more :)

I ended up moving back to edge forward strokes mostly as Alan pointed out because of consistency, I found that spine leading works best on very fine very straight edges IME

I personally mostly do edge trailing strokes and have problem with wire edges once in a while.
I don't know why but it seems to happen more with 7/8 or 8/8 than a 4/8 or 5/8.
I just use light pressured bread knifing strokes on a felt block and knocks most of the burrs off without doing any harm.

On some harder steels like carbonsongs, I just find it harder to knock off the edge once they form.
I will sometimes restart from 5k with edge forward strokes on those, if I get frustrated enough.

Not that anyone is asking but another technique that produces inconsistent, but sometimes fantastic results, is aligning the blade heel forward and doing about 10-15 strokes on one side only, then flipping the blade and doing an equal number on the other side. This maintains this exact angle until you flip. Later, I discovered that by improving my angle discipline the technique lost it's power.

Although no one likes to admit it, most variances in technique, that produce sudden results, do so because of a large fundamental flaw in skill. There are some very obvious honing technique flaws in which spine leading strokes are the remedy. It can be just as beneficial to remove the flaws.

There is a good reason that barber's thought it took 10 years to learn how to hone.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

There are some very obvious honing technique flaws in which spine leading strokes are the remedy. It can be just as beneficial to remove the flaws.
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Can you elaborate? If I can identify my flaws I can work to mitigate them.

Generally speaking the biggest flaws would be uneven honing pressure, not being able to keep the razor flat or having a stroke that leaves part of the blade with less honing action than other spots. In general: inconsistency in the various aspects of honing.

Changing to a different stroke (like making circles) may remove some of the symptoms in that case.
However, the magic is not in making circles, but in the fact that the circles make you lose one kind of inconsistency.

The Japanese sword makers always use a two motion stroke that is edge forward then back. The finishing strokes are stropping strokes. This is the way I sharpen knives, but not with my razors. I think it can't hurt to finish with a few, very light touch stropping strokes, but I don't think it improves much upon a properly honed edge leading stroke.

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Originally Posted by AFDavis11

...Although no one likes to admit it, most variances in technique, that produce sudden results, do so because of a large fundamental flaw in skill. There are some very obvious honing technique flaws in which spine leading strokes are the remedy. It can be just as beneficial to remove the flaws. lll

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Al, I think your point is solid. I agree. As I write, I'm still pondering the various ways this is true w/ my honing. I suspect the converse is also true - that the inconsistency has a cause that most likely is technique also. Whatever remediation is needed for the uneven bevel with edge leading method - would need some counterpart w/ a spine-leading method.

I certainly wouldn't suggest stropping strokes as a silver bullet, holy grail. It was pure experiment for me w/ some nice results (for whatever reason). I was surprised, and will retain it as one more arrow in the quiver.
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Edit to add: Gents, I appreciate your kind help w/ getting some perspective here. Saying more would only repeat that appreciation. Thanks to each of you.

if the edge leading and spine leading strokes are both leading with the heel, you would get a cross hatched scratch pattern (sorta).. just a thought.

I've been trying to incorporate back honing/stropping as part of my usual stroke. At the end of each pass the razor does a little circular, pigtail, type motion essentially meaning there a small percentage of back honing in every lap. I think I've seen Glen and Sham mention it in videos.

As has already been covered above when I can dramatically improve an edge using stropping motions on anything I tend to assume I need to work more on the honing stage.

Can a decent bevel be set by using solely stropping motions on a 1k synthetic or dmt?

There are several methods that produce a significant amount of consistency when honing. That said, there is always that occasional razor that gives us fits when trying to hone it. I have found that things like back honing, the use of TI white paste, the use of red paste, news papers and even an infrequently used hone may just be the difference for that occasional razor. You many try one or all of these and more and they may work or not. When they do, it's a good thing. The important thing is to have them in your arsenal and recognize when you are having problems early so that you don't eat up a razor on the hones. Always keep in mind that what works for one person may work differently for the next guy. It can be much tougher when learning how to hone because so many people these days look for great results right out of the blocks. At the end of the day, if something sounds like it's up your alley, give it a try and it may just work great for you and you is all that matters.

There is a lot less heresy than what is depicted elsewhere.........:beer1: You have to try new things to learn new things.

I believe that when the bevel is set correctly, it is harder not to finish with a good result so long as you are using the lightest of pressure from your 8K to finish. I believe this because it works for me.

Have fun.

Forwards, backwards, sideways, use whatever stroke gets you there.

A bit of an update. Another half dozen blades and some re-finishing/touch-ups.

I continue to brew on the stropping strokes providing correction for inconsistency in my regular strokes. Al, Your input is very much appreciated.

On the assumption that no pressure is good for normal 8k+ normal strokes, I'd do no pressure strokes in he stropping direction. Minimal improvement. A few strokes with up to medium (I would guess 1 lb - mostly in a torsional manner towards the edge) pressure, then about the same amount w/ no pressure - seem to more consistently produce the bump in sharpness. I've tried on most grinds except full wedges. The process seems much less sensitive to pressure, and especially for the two wavy blades I tried. Got wave? strop stroke w/ pressure. Happy shave.

This eve on a Wacker hollow, the same technique was followed w/ the normal result. HHT results at .4" from point of hold were now happening at at least .75" from poh. (YHairMV :) ) The HHT results remained in place after the normal strokes - so at least for these strokes, they were good enough not to undo the gains made from the stropping stroke. This was all done on a y/g thuri. Similar improvements have been obtained from Cotis and a N-asagi.

'Not writing this to suggest it works for anyone else, or that I'm particularly good at this, but for anyone else that tries it and has some luck w/ it.