Honing a trapezoidal blade?

I've been a little curious about this but might have trouble describing it. I've bought a Case Red Imp, knowing that the blade wasn't completely perfect. Anyhow, let me see if I can describe the issue. It's not frowned, but the heel is wider than the toe. The spine wear is more pronounced at the toe, than at the heel as well. Which makes perfect sense ofc. But what steps would a person take first, in honing this razor? I was thinking it may be necessary to take the blade to a slow grinding wheel, after tracing the spine onto the cutting edge. Then removing metal up to my new line. But the problem of more spine wear at the toe than the heel will still exist. The other option I was considering is deliberately using a toe heavy stroke in an attempt to try to even out the spine wear. I always figure a blade like this was put away at the point where the guy who used it before me could no longer get it sharp. And I assume he couldn't get it sharp any longer because of the way he sharpened it. So the blade is trapezoidal I guess now. I know people have encountered this before a billion times, but wasn't sure where to look to find a pinpoint answer. So here's the post. Thanks in advance.

I would lean more to the thinking that it was put away when he died. I would try to figure out the stroke that the previous owner used and copy it.

I'm thinking it will either lay flat on the hone with the wear as is .... or it won't. If it won't you might do circles until it will .... or if that is a lot of metal removal, and not the way it looks like you should go, a modified rolling x stroke might do it. Some guys have recommended taping the spine in the worn area only , but I have no experience with trying that. I've always avoided blades with that type of wear because they don't appeal to me cosmetically. Therefore my contribution, such as it is, ... is more speculation than experience. :gl:

Well he just passed last winter. He was a local barber who retired many years ago, and this was out of his collection. As sketchy as I think it is when someone says that, I do have it on good provenance. He may never have used this one though I guess. It might have just been something he picked up after retiring as a memento. But all his blades were like this. It's fairly easy to copy the stroke. It's a typical knife sharpening type stroke I'd use. So that's what made me think they all came from the same sharpener. Thanks 32T! Anybody wanna second that motion?

And Jimmy, I was overcome when I saw an Imp for 19 bucks. Only time will tell if I should have saved my pennies for one a little more aesthetically pleasing. :) I was hoping I'd be able to figure a way to make it right again. But we'll see.

You could try the Trapezoidal rule and if that doesn't work, move to higher-order Runge Kutta methods...

:D

James.

Are you talking about a Honed out toe ????

The straight razor - Straight Razor Place Wiki

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

...But the problem of more spine wear at the toe than the heel will still exist. The other option I was considering is deliberately using a toe heavy stroke in an attempt to try to even out the spine wear...

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Do you mean a heel heavy stroke? And could that cause the spine to be curved? I'm not experienced in honing at all, but I'd agree that if it lays evenly on the hone it should sharpen. I'd work with it as it is for a while and see if you can get it to work.

I'm resisting the urge to send my De Pews away as I'm learning a lot trying to get it to work as it is (sort of a curved blade); though I did take some of the stabilisers at the heel off after some advice.

I hope you get it sorted, and I bet it'll be fun learning!

Carl

Yes Gssixgun, that's exactly it! Sorry I didn't see that myself. I'll read that article. But I will say that mine isn't nearly as extreme as the one shown in the wiki.

Carl, yes, I messed that up. HEEL heavy stroke is what I meant. And give yourself a little credit. You've been honing now for quite a while, if I remember right. You may not be at a 100 percent success rate, but you've got experience.

My plan is to go with any idea that is suggested and seconded. lol. I figure if it worked for two guys, it'll work for me. It does lay flat on the hone, but I'd like to bring it back to correct shape if possible. Otherwise, I'll continue to make it more and more "honed out".

[QUOTE=regularjoe;991752]...Carl, yes, I messed that up. HEEL heavy stroke is what I meant. And give yourself a little credit. You've been honing now for quite a while, if I remember right. You may not be at a 100 percent success rate, but you've got experience...QUOTE]

Thanks dude. Well, I have kept my five razors at a point that they'll keep me from looking like a homeless bum for a year, so I guess that does count for something. Some of these guys have honed THOUSANDS or razors though! One day, one day I'll sit with a fellow straight razor shaver and we'll be able to hone together in real life so to speak. It'll be interesting (if it ever happens) to learn and also to may pass on some knowledge. I did teach my son to hone, too :-)

Ok, so we've established it's called a honed out toe. lol. Any ideas for fixing it? Or maybe a picture would help?

As someone else said,I would figure out the previous owners stroke and keep at it. This may also be a prime opportunity for you to do a regrind!

Motion carries. I'll rehone it tomorrow, using my best approximation of the original honers stroke. Thanks fellahs!

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

Well he just passed last winter. He was a local barber who retired many years ago, and this was out of his collection. As sketchy as I think it is when someone says that, I do have it on good provenance. He may never have used this one though I guess. It might have just been something he picked up after retiring as a memento. But all his blades were like this. It's fairly easy to copy the stroke. It's a typical knife sharpening type stroke I'd use. So that's what made me think they all came from the same sharpener.

I was hoping I'd be able to figure a way to make it right again. But we'll see.

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You could very well be right that he used it and kept it as a memento. " I shaved X amount of guys a week for 2 years with this... I made a lot of money!"

The trouble in my mind is that if the toe is honed out the only way to make it "right" again is to hone out the heel. It would be aesthetically pleasing but both ends would be junk.

If you can't make it work as is add it to your collection with the memory of a well used tool. Think of how many dates, weddings, or business meetings it helped.

On the other end of the spectrum you could save the scales until another with a good blade but cracked scales came along.

Tim

I missed your last post. Good luck! You have nothing to loose.

Tim

Actually, you know, just thinking, but the last user's shaving method is just as important as his honing method. I use the heel a lot when I shave and the belly; I really don't consciously use the toe at all. In fact, find some of my razors a little on the narrow side to allow for accommodating my thumb under the tang and still allowing for room between my thumb and face. I hope you can visualise what I'm talking about. So maybe the last owner used the toe a lot in his shaving routine as well? Maybe the toe is quite a bit sharper than the heel? I'd actually really like to see a photo; and it'd be interesting to see a photo of it lying on a hone; or even better, pushing the pool of water across the hone. I'm really concentrating on the 'pushed pool of water' when I hone lately. However, I guess the pool of water can 'lie' if the hones not flat?

A Trappa what ??

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Mostly I go for keeping the geometry established by the previous owner and making it shaveable again.

If it's a special blade, I might take the time to try correcting it. In that case, I would just grind away at the heel on a low grit stone until it's close, and then do X's to even it out.

I wouldn't advise regrinding . Unless you're a skilled razor grinder , odds are that it won't work out well . OTOH , the only way to become a skilled razor grinder , is to start grinding some razors . The first few will be your "mistake razors" . :D

Yeah I'm not willing to let this razor be a mistake razor. It's just barely out of whack. In fact, I doubt many could even see it without an "in hand" inspection. Anyhow...here I go! :)

On youtube there are 3 different people that shows how to hone a smiling blade, the same technique can be used to hone "Toward" a smiling blade...

If you start honing toward a smile you should get a nice profile and still be able to shave as it progresses..

Alex/Philadelph
Charlie/Spazola
and me :p

Check out the "Smiling Blade" honing from all three of us, we all use a similar technique, and it should slowly correct your minor geometry issue :)
This way you are not doing drastic changes just a slow correction through the next few honing cycles

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

A Trappa what ??

Attachment 101274

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I had to read this thread to figure that word out......I'm STILL confused!

Well, all is well. I initially tried to approximate the original honers stroke, but I did manage to do a little correction. As Glen said, over the course of a few honings, it should be right again. So it'll be good in like 3 years or so. :p I guess the best description wold be to say I did a heel heavy stroke for every regular x stroke. But I also did about 120 circles, so that wouldn't be completely accurate. It's pretty well fixed. Thanks to all.

Duplicating an incorrect stroke would seem counter productive to the ultimate utility and purpose of the blade, which would be a great shave. My suggestion would be to:

1) True the blade width. Slow strokes on concrete works very well as you are essentially edge on trying to cut perpendicular until the blade width is true. Of course this is with more pressure on the wider area until it matches the narrow section.

2) True the spine width. Using a fairly high grit of 400 or less, you can use pressure and placement to true the spine.

3) Hone a new bevel and edge with correct strokes.

This assumes that the blade width is not too narrow so as to drop below 3/8" to 1/2" overall after the correction, if so then the correction would be too much and the blade too narrow.

I would use a micrometer to measure your gradual success while truing the spine and blade width.

I have a Genco with a much more extreme toe hone wear. I just figured that it had done a lot of work and honed it as such. Surprisingly good steel left in this blade and it is a wonderful shaver, kinda ugly, but it doesn't know that...

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Originally Posted by JoeSomebody

I have a Genco with a much more extreme toe hone wear. I just figured that it had done a lot of work and honed it as such. Surprisingly good steel left in this blade and it is a wonderful shaver, kinda ugly, but it doesn't know that...

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The hair only sees the edge :)

Oh, OK, thanks for the photo; it's exactly as you described, really. Interesting. I'm sorry to say the aesthetics of that geometry doesn't really appeal to me. I'd now say get it to some Master to get a re-grind or whatever (just my personal opinion of course)...

Well, as Dave said, one will never learn how to fix these things, if he always pays someone else to do it. :p Anyhow, I agree with you. If I'd had the choice between a honed out toe or a perfectly perfect razor, I'd have gone with perfectly perfect. But it shaves as good as any other, and I'll eventually get it back to right. It'll just take a hew honing cycles. :)

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

Well, as Dave said, one will never learn how to fix these things, if he always pays someone else to do it. :p Anyhow, I agree with you. If I'd had the choice between a honed out toe or a perfectly perfect razor, I'd have gone with perfectly perfect. But it shaves as good as any other, and I'll eventually get it back to right. It'll just take a hew honing cycles. :)

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Yeah, too true :-)

As said by JimmyHAD in the start of the thread, if the spine wear is also more at the toe and the razor lays flat on the hone than I would think to hone as normal.
My opinion only. Why not try the simpllest first?

Paco, the most simple way to hone the razor would be "as is". My question was more directed at a tactic to sharpen the razor with an eye towards correcting a problem that will multiply on itself with each additional honing. I also wanted to ensure, through others experience, that the razor shouldn't be problematic. I hate nothing more than sitting down to hone, and discovering I've overlooked/dismissed an error that needs correcting before I can actually sharpen the razor. :)

Adding pepper to the radiator will help it hold water for the time being(simplest). While finding the hole, and repairing it will fix it permanently(goal). So...I guess that's why not the simplest first. I'm not in a hurry. I wanted to do it right, and only once. :)

I always considered that wear part of the blades history. With as many blades as we all see that are honed out at the toe, I think this may have been done on purpose to get a slightly smiling blade. In any case, these blades to me have some character and I wouldn't change them. if I wanted a perfect blade, I would get one to begin with. That's what makes this hobby of ours so great, all things are fun to experiment with!

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

Paco, the most simple way to hone the razor would be "as is". My question was more directed at a tactic to sharpen the razor with an eye towards correcting a problem that will multiply on itself with each additional honing. I also wanted to ensure, through others experience, that the razor shouldn't be problematic. I hate nothing more than sitting down to hone, and discovering I've overlooked/dismissed an error that needs correcting before I can actually sharpen the razor. :)

Adding pepper to the radiator will help it hold water for the time being(simplest). While finding the hole, and repairing it will fix it permanently(goal). So...I guess that's why not the simplest first. I'm not in a hurry. I wanted to do it right, and only once. :)

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Sorry for the missunderstanding. I mistakenly understood the OP to ask to sharpen the blade, not to also bring it back to the original shape.:fim:
My bad! Hope for your success :tu