I use an SRD paddle strop with felt and CrOx to finish after honing and to touchup razors. I know many use balsa for the CrOx. Is there a reason balsa may be superior?
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I use an SRD paddle strop with felt and CrOx to finish after honing and to touchup razors. I know many use balsa for the CrOx. Is there a reason balsa may be superior?
It's a matter of technique and preference.
Most compounds can be used on most strops (be they balsa, felt, leather, or cloth) the strop is simply a carrier for the compound. Some like different compositions or firmness, but it generally boils down to preference and what yields the greatest consistency.
I use leather glued to a board.
I have a feeling that chrom-ox is better on a surface with some give, like felt or leather. That is the only way I've ever used it. I have also used diamond paste on balsa and that does what it is supposed to do. I just never tried the C O on balsa 'cause it worked well enough on the felt.
Works fine for me. Cheap and easy to try. I imagine the balsa will achieve more of a true V shaped bevel and felt, leather or linen slightly more concave.
Yes the more give a surface has the more convex it will impart on the bevels. This is critical to remember while contemplating the pressure you use.
I have a growing level of experience with straights and a fairly broad level with other edged tools with finely polished edges. I'd suggest the equivalent polishes can be obtained with a given abrasive regardless of what it is applied to (leather, balsa or other hardwood).
Generally some will migrate away from balsa because it eventually gets mishandled and dented where leather is more forgiving in this regard (as are hardwoods such as oak).
Ideally, I prefer leather mounted on hardwood. But it's just a personal preference. The hanging strip is more "romantic" but requires an additional input (tension) from the user.
There are LOTS of ways to maintain an edge. I'd suggest the one that you enjoy most is the best;)
That's funny Jimmy, I was thinking the same thing, except the other way around - it's worked well enough for me on balsa lol...Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
I think the appeal of balsa is that it is harder to duff an edge on a non-flexible surface compared to a hanging strop loaded with paste. And it works well too, I might add. Since I've never used felt myself I'll leave it to those more experienced than myself to comment on both
I'm curious as to why you would think this. With a balsa strop a user is using gentle spine-leading strokes, so I'm not sure why it would get dented or be otherwise mishandled?Quote:
Originally Posted by unit
I'm speaking of mishandling when not in use as a strop. Balsa makes a great strop, but it requires a bit more care for storage because it is soft. In use, I think it is among the easiest to use perhaps because the light delicate feel seems to remind the user to be gentle;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan82
I have dinged many chunks of balsa when traveling. Perhaps some guys have nice cases for them? Perhaps I should look into this...but for the added cost I'd prefer leather hones (abrasive loaded leather stretched over hard wood or granite). YMMV
Fair enough. To be honest I'd never considered travelling with my balsa strop but you're right, it could get dinged up (and messy too!) without some form of protective case. It seems pretty safe at home though, at least at my house :)Quote:
Originally Posted by unit
Each medium that the Pastes are applied to impart a different level of effectiveness..
I can only tell you what the history has been on SRP with razors
With Straight Razors there was never any issue with harsh edges from pastes until people started using Balsa as a test medium, and that was what it was first used as..
Several years back people started saying if you just want to try a paste, try it on a piece of Balsa before you commit an expensive strop to it.. That changed to using it exclusively, to people getting harsh edges..
Please do not take my word for this just look back in the archives and read it for yourself the progression is easy to find.. Also the "Convex the edge" guys started adding to the fire which just really should not happen unless you just don't understand stropping a razor.. Again don't take my word for it go read the archives..
IME I personally like a Leather bench strop for pasted use or the Hard felt, but try it all and decide for yourself...
I should have mentioned that the only way I've used paste or chrom-ox is on a flat bed with felt for the chrome-ox and with balsa glued to plexiglass for the diamond paste. The balsa stays in the kitchen cabinet with 3 pieces 8x3" glued to the plexi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan82
I've also got one of those old 4 sided paddles Tony Miller used to make with 3 sides paste on leather and one chrom-ox. Thinking about it I also have a Livi loom strop with soft leather on one side (untreated) and chrom-ox on canvas on the other. I do have an SRD hanging felt with the .05 diamond spray and that will get 'er done.
I went "on a mission" to do it all with hones and untreated hanging strops a couple of years ago so I don't use any of that stuff now. I've got it and I reserve the right to change my mind but for now I'm happy with the nortons ,the y/g escher and an untreated hanging strop to meet my needs.
I use Balsa wood for my pastes, Crox, .25Um and .50Um. When not in use I wrap them individualy in cling film[Saran Wrap] and then wrap that in fairly thick bubble wrap. With labels of course. No dings so far, it's just a matter of treating even the most basic tools with respect, even balsa wood pasted strops.
As I"m sure you all do, of course!!
JMHO, that is, YMMV.
Interesting stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
I should point out (again) that I am new to razors. I have experience sharpening many other tools to a high level of polish and HHTs. My reports and findings are based on my experience which should be taken with careful consideration of the facts that most of my honing/stropping experience is not with razors.
I'll shut up now as I lack the wisdom that many here posess.
Have a great day, gents. And thanks for the info/lessons. :)
Interesting about the balsa = harsh edge Glen. I tried linen, leather and balsa a year or two back and settled on the balsa for cro ox. To be honest I don't use cro ox on razors much at all these days but it might be time to go back and experiment again.
Apologies if the convex edge comment is ill informed, added to confusion, or I don't understand stropping. I was under the impression that using abrasives on substrates with some give would lead to a convex edge. Reading through the archives the idea seems to have been that the, hypothetical, convex bevel created by such a process would eventually become round and incapable of shaving. My impression was that one could strop all day, everyday, on something like cro ox and with a decent technique the razor would still maintain a perfect cutting edge with the same tiny degree of convex that was imparted by the first few strops until the razor was all but gone - that one can maintain a very slight convex bevel indefinitely just as one could maintain a similar v-bevel on a high grit stone. The only way I can think to round the edge to the point of uselessness using a hanging strop would be to loosen the strop and/or increase pressure.
Trying to think of a way to test this, perhaps hundreds of strops on a pasted hanging strop followed by one stroke on a slow finisher to see if the scratch marks cover the whole bevel or just the centre of it? If I'm successful it may well just prove that I've got a crap stropping technique :)
I remember years ago when I started experimenting w/ pastes, I used crox on balsa--the edge was OK, but in retrospect, was not as smooth as it could have been. I got into CBN earlier this year & right away noticed it could get harsh on balsa, plus the balsa really had a tendency to load up w/ swarf, making it much less efficient & eventually making it incapable of giving the performance CBN is capable of. (Probably CBN's fast cutting speed has something to do w/ the rapid swarf deposition.).
My thinking is, to get the best of a paste, you need a surface w/ at least a little bit of give so you get a slight microbevel or convexity to the very tip of the edge. In addition to riding over the skin better & "acting" smoother, mathematically, this actually gives a slightly stronger edge than a perfectly straight edge (more metal behind the cutting edge), so in theory the edge should last longer. Now, the amount of convexity we impart through pasted stropping is probably negligible, so the edges probably don't last any longer in real world use, but they do tend to feel nice if done right (not too much).
so.. what does CBN mean?? :shrug:thanks!
As for substrate I use.... I've been having rather good success with hard knit wool cloth... currently glued to a 1/4" thick slab of balsa and the balsa is magnetically mounted on my 12" x 3", 3/8" thick cold rolled steel bench strop. I have a number of surfaces I use on that steel bed, leathers... both smooth and scrubbed.Quote:
Cubic boron nitride (CBN) is the second hardest material after synthetic diamond and is synthesised from hexagonal boron nitride under conditions similar to those used to produce synthetic diamond from graphite.
I do have a glass plate that I intend to use spray adhesive to mount a layer of the hard knit wool cloth to, and then just rub a little Crox powder into it. I only use about 5 or 6 laps on the wool/crox combo, but only for removing any lingering, microscopic burrs left after finish honing on one of my natural hones. In the past, I used a crox pasted paddle to freshen my razors, but I don't seem to like it these days, preferring one of my Natural hones instead. Does it work?!?! Well, on a rare occasion when *only* using Natural finishing hones, I have had sharp edges suddenly go dull during my first pass... rare to be sure, but it has happened and my suspicion was that a false edge (faint burr) had rolled over.
I have never experienced this issue after I started using the wool/crox combo.
Hard knit wool.... in my case, I simply asked my tailor for some 100% wool scraps left over from making suits. He has a large box of such scraps and was all to happy to give me some... The free part might have had something to do with my sharpening his shears and kitchen knives for free.....
The idea came from Kousuke Iwasaki's book on honing razors and while I like the book... his suggestion that gents of my age, might have withered arms, was a bit annoying. :shrug:
As to what to use.... we all need to try things out and see how they work for us. While Glen suggests that balsa is recent and was originally used for "testing" pastes, I do remember my Dad having a balsa surfaced paddle strop he pasted and used in his barbers business (1950s and 60s)... I seem to recall he used it with black paste... probably one of those black crayons you can get from several sources today. He never bought any of these things... all his pasted paddle strops and his hair brushes, he made himself. I still remember going out to a farm with him, where he would get horse hair to tie his own hair brushes.
Were his edges any good? No idea other than he would cut my hair with a straight instead of shears or clippers.... And, for the record, he never shaved himself with a straight, but rather a Gillette safety razor and Wilkinson Sword blades.
Regards
Christian
No No That is not what I suggested, The Balsa Strop idea is old, much like nearly every idea for SR's it stated for other tools, what was new was using it to test the pastes for Straight Razors...Quote:
Originally Posted by kaptain_zero
Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Thanks Glen,
I must have read the "in between" bits, and not the lines themselves! :gaah:
Yet to be responded.... whats CBN? 😀😀
Enviado desde mi SM-G903M mediante Tapatalk
This stuff. I know Glen has mentioned using it years ago. I never had the pleasureQuote:
Originally Posted by gabrielcr78
CBN
Personally out of the substrates I have used in the past I don't much like either Balsa or felt. I used a couple a sheets of newspaper a few times wrapped around a hone and pasted that and it wasnt bad at all. My favorite is a nice smooth leather or fabric bench strop pasted and I think Mastro Livi got it right when it comes to pastes using a loom strop. Works great for me.
CBN is Cubic Boron Nitrite is second to diamond in hardness, but has a different shape compared with Diamond.
It comes in grits as small as .010um about 160,000 grit.
For CBN I use a paper strop and mist the strop with distilled water for best performance. You can strop on CBN daily, for a very keen, very smooth shaving edge.
One of the problems with CBN is, not all razors can take and hold an edge that fine, but a .50um CBN edge is very doable and comfortable.
I like balsa as a medium for CroOx and FeOx. A dab will do ya!;)
Yes, you don't need a lot of any paste, nor a lot of pressure, remember, you are polishing a finish.
Substrates will change performance of paste, I used to paste 5-gallon paint stir sticks to test pastes.
So, experiment a little, cardboard, wood, (not just balsa) cloth, leather, paper and weaved strapping, all give different finish, some very little some, a lot.
Experiment, you will be impressed and your results may be, different from mine, depending on technique and pressure, hanging or paddled. A lot of variables involved.
It kills me when guys say, “I tried X and it did not work for me”. Experiment, substrates are not expensive, a trip to the fabric store will get you a bag full of interesting substrates for much less than, a twenty-dollar bill.
Plus, there are tons of old Paste threads here and on other Fora. Lot of good information is available.
Jimmy!!!! that stuff is wicked! you see? now you put the idea on my head that i have to try CBN!... there goes my X-mass money :(Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD