Need advice sharpening a dull razor

First of all, let me tell you what I did to my poor razor: I stropped it on red paste with the spine lifted so that the blade was at an angle of 30 - 40 degrees with the strop. Laugh all you want, I didn't know any better then.

So yesterday I went to a razor sharpening course in the koordenwinkel (which was excellent btw) and I bought a beautiful yellow coticule with a natural blue stone back.

The guy who taught the course had a look at my razor with a lens, and told me what I already suspected. I.e. the edge is gone and I have spend a couple of hours on the stone if I want to restore it.

I spent some timing X'ing away, alternating between the yellow (8K) and the blue (4K). every so often I would do what the teacher told me, which is to test the knife on the edge of a folded post it note. If the edge cuts smoothly you know that the edge is back, and you automatically get rid of the loose barbs and serrations that are hanging on the edge.

When I hold the razor to the light, the light reflects from the edge at the same angle as the light on the spine where it touched the stone. I assumed that this meant the edge was back. Thinking about it right now, I realize that this does not guarantee that both sides of that edge touch each other of course...

I then stropped on red paste (about 20 Xes) and on the leather (10 Xes)
It is still dull. HHT fails, and I can't even shave the hair on my arms.

So here's my question:
what do I need to do? is it simply a matter of spending more time? if so, do I need to back hone in between to prevent overhoning?
How do know when the edge is back?

There is a thread with excellent advice on honing with a coticule (coming from Randy). Check it out as it will help you with your predicament.

Yes, more honing; less post-it notes.

Based on what your saying I think you might consider some trips on the 4K hone to establish a good bevel. What your doing now is too little with not enough oompf. I have a Belgian Blue and find its about 6K but is a very slow cutter. You might try some trips on that using just a little and I mean a little pressure as you hone.

Since coticules are slow cutters you may want to establish the initial bevel with some 1000 and 2000 grit wet/dry sand-paper before finishing it off on the coticule.

Ilija (Firestart) has the right idea. Tape the spine, put some 1K sandpaper on a glass top of plate or heavy tile, and hone away, with both the spine and edge touching the sandpaper. Keep checking the edge until it looks straight (a straight line with no chips) and even (the bevel should be the same height along its entire length). When it looks good, remove the tape and hone on the 4K. Every once in a while do a thumbNAIL test. When the razor passes the test you've got a good edge; sharpen it.

If your razor fails the thumbnail test, the way it fails tells you what's wrong and what you need to do. For example, if you get the symptom for a wire edge, do a few backhones, then work normally to pass the test.

A discussion of the thumbnail test appears in my artocle "An Organized Approach to Sharpening Razors" in my gallery. You can also get detailed information on the thumbnail test at classicshaving.com, the section called "how to ... and why", in th section where honing is discussed.

I agree with Joe Lerch on this one. Get the rough bevel back by using the 1k sandpaper. It should take no more than 10-25 laps. Then move on the the coarse side of the Belgian.

Ok I'll do that. I don't have sandpaper of that grit size at the moment, but I have to go to the hardware store tomorrow anyway.
Do I have to wet it or not?

Yes, wet it on both sides. I apply a section the size of my hone to the smoothest side. Remember, it must be wet/dry sandpaper, not ordinary sandpaper.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Yes, wet it on both sides. I apply a section the size of my hone to the smoothest side. Remember, it must be wet/dry sandpaper, not ordinary sandpaper.

---

What is the difference, and how do I distinguish between the 2?

Ask the clerk at the store if its not clear from the packaging.

On the back it says something like:

3M
401Q
Imperial
WETORDRY (one word)
Paper A Wt.
-----------------------
WARNING: Wear eye, face,
and body protection
---------------------------------
1000

So I had a couple of hours to spare yesterday evening and this afternoon, and I figured that I'd practise my honing technique.
I could not go out to buy sandpaper anyway.

I did a couple of hunderds of Xes on the blue side, back honing 5 Xes every hunderd laps, followed 100 laps on the red paste and 50 strokes on the leather.

By now the edge is sharp enough to easily shave the hair on my arm, using spit for moisturizing.
Does this mean I don't need the sandpaper anymore?
If so, how to proceed from here?

You're probably past that stage. When it starts shaving with no lubrication, hit the yellow and finish that sucker off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT

You're probably past that stage. When it starts shaving with no lubrication, hit the yellow and finish that sucker off.

---

Thanks.
When honing on the yellow, do I need to worry about overhoning?

It's a slow cutter so it should be ok as long as you test it every 10 strokes or so. Once the performance stops improving all along the blade, you should give it a shave-test.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bruno

Ok I'll do that. I don't have sandpaper of that grit size at the moment, but I have to go to the hardware store tomorrow anyway.
Do I have to wet it or not?

---

You may not be able to get it at an ordinary hardware store. I know Sears has it. Or you can get from an auto parts store that has body repaier supplies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bruno

Thanks.
When honing on the yellow, do I need to worry about overhoning?

---

BTW, the best way to hone on the yellow, IMO, is to create a slurry. You do this with a rubbing stone, or if you don't have one, you can use flat pumice or a babrer hone. Once the slurry looks like a milky puddle on most of the surface, you're ready to go.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

BTW, the best way to hone on the yellow, IMO, is to create a slurry. You do this with a rubbing stone, or if you don't have one, you can use flat pumice or a babrer hone. Once the slurry looks like a milky puddle on most of the surface, you're ready to go.

---

I have a slurry stone that is yellow coticule on one side, and blue on the other side.
I got it for free with the coticule.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT

You're probably past that stage. When it starts shaving with no lubrication, hit the yellow and finish that sucker off.

---

:D
I just did 120 laps on the blue, applying just a pit of pressure. Basically I just held the middle and ring finger of my left hand on the blade while Xing without actually pressing.

Then 50 laps on the paste and 20 on the leather.

Now the hairs on my arm smoothly popping off without lubrication.
Actually it felt so nice and smooth I sort of accidentally shaved a couple of cm...
:o

Anyway I'll now switch to the yellow. I'll let you know the results.

Good show. Remember to test all parts of the blade (heel, middle and toe) and both sides of the bevel (face and back)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT

Good show. Remember to test all parts of the blade (heel, middle and toe) and both sides of the bevel (face and back)

---

150 laps on the yellow later, followed by 50 on the paste and 30 on the leather, the middle is now HHT sharp.

The heel and the toe not yet.
now, when thinking about the X pattern, it is obvious that the middle part of the razor is almost always on the stone (or strop for that matter), while the heel and the toe are only half the time on the stone.

does this matter?

If your hone is lapped flat, that should not be an issue (if it's not, lap it), but since it is... Use the X-system (the one championed by X, not the x-pattern):
Start off by pressing with the heel and transition into pressing with the toe by the end of the stroke.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT

If your hone is lapped flat, that should not be an issue (if it's not, lap it), but since it is... Use the X-system (the one championed by X, not the x-pattern):
Start off by pressing with the heel and transition into pressing with the toe by the end of the stroke.

---

Even if the hone is flat, if it's between 1.5 and 3" wide, he will form a frown in the long run for exactly the reason he stated. The middle of the blade spends more time on the hone than the ends.

That's not to say that you can't compensate for it, but that means using uneven pressure over a stroke.

When the edge of a razor is truly sharp, you will not see any light reflecting from the edge. That is also true of knives, plane irons, etc. The reason that you'll see a black line instead of light reflecting is that the edge is actually narrower than the light waves, thus no reflection of light waves. Beyond that, use the hanging hair test, the thumb nail test, etc. The post-it test and the thumb nail test will get you to "factory edge" level and hanging hair test will get you perfect results in a shave.

What you need to do is reestablish the edge by removing a fair amount of metal with something like a DMT 1200 grit extra fine stone, then moving to a 4000 grit blue belgian and then an 8000 grit yellow coticule. You could also do the second step after the DMT with a Norton 4000 and then a yellow coticule. Sharpening is a progressive process and honing is the end of that process. The belgian stones are finishing stones and not used to remove lots of steel which is what you have to do.

I cannot recommend highly enough the practice of honing using magnification. Truly one does not know what is going on at the edge without looking at all parts of the blade on both sides and including the heel and the toe. I use an OptiVisor and I also use the RadioShack 100x lighted magnifier. These are small investments to make and will make you an expert honer fairly quickly.

Howard