went to a honing course yesterday.

Summary:

first got some basics about the blade, what makes it dull/sharp, general material and build (and it's relationship with the shrpness)

then we went onto the honing:

1) basic honing technique on belgian coticule
2) go through piece of paper with your blade to remove any 'crud' left on top of the razor
3) go over pasted paddle strop (TI 'red paste', anyone know how this compares to the pastes Tony Miller uses?)
4) go over linen strop
5) go over leather strop

Course was only 15€ so worth it. :)

Now while this gives a sharp result, I doubt it's the best you can get. Why else would all you guys use a Norton 4/8? However according to the teacher you wouldn't need anything else but the coticule and I do find that a bit strange, a coticule is pretty expensive, why buy an expensive Norton if you wouldn't need it?!

Anyway, what's the truth about it? I don't have a Norton (yet) so I can't compare and I'm currently wondering wether to buy a Norton stone combo from Amazon.com(or anywhere else you may recommend) or not.

In the course they also said that the grid of the belgian was around 8000, would that mean it would be exactly the same as the norton 8K side?

Thx. :)

Harold

That sounds like a good course, Harold.

Who ran it?

I don't need a norton...I only use a coticule. Unless the blade has nicks in it or anything like it. When that's the case I first work it on a rougher stone.

Hi Harold,

This thread (which you started) has a good explanation of coticule grit size, and how it compares to other stones.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/showt...randy+coticule

As you know, my razor edge is busted. I am trying to restore it, and it is going slow. The back of my coticule is true belgian blue, which should be equivalent to 4K.
However, I suspect that it is finer.

In my case, a coarser grit would probably save me some time because the it would take away metal much faster.

I suspect that this is one of the reasons that people whow hone razors have need of multiple stones.
For just touching up and maintaining your own razor, you'd need only the coticule perhaps.

Harold,

Someone else recently mentioned a class like this, and it sounds like they got some similar information.

The one thing that alarms me just a bit is the advice to slice a piece of paper after you finish honing. I think that would dull the razor quite a bit, but I could be wrong.

I don't have any experience with the Belgian stones, but I think the blue is considered a medium stone and the yellow is a finisher. If that's the case, you wouldn't "need" a Norton or any other stone, especially if you have a pasted strop to work with.

But if you want to fix up eBay razors, or if you happen to put a nick in your favorite blade, the Norton might save you some time. It's big, 8 inches by 3 inches, and it cuts fast. It'll help you remove metal more quickly.

I doubt if you'd find much difference between a blade that had been well sharpened on a Norton vs. one honed by an expert on the Belgians.

Good luck,
Josh

Well, belgians are not common in the US. Also, the norton combines very fast cutting with fine grit, so you can use it to take nicks out very quickly and still use it to put a fine shaving edge on the razor. It's possible for a hone to have a coarse grit and still be a very slow cutter, and it's possible for a hone to have a very fine grit and still be a fast cutter. Belgians (both the blue and yellow) tend to be very slow, as is the arkansas hone and the tam o'shanter hone. The Norton and Shapton hones tend to be quite fast, but you do have to be careful of overhoning with them.

ok, so it's really just a speed thing. I was just wondering wether it would be the structuring of the cutting particles in the stone that would be something which gives a major difference in sharpness.

The slicing of paper after putting it on the hone but before running it over a pasted strop surprised me as well but I must say it works well. :shrug:

Was a great course though, very friendly knowledgeable teacher (shaves with a straight himself), course was in the 'koordenwinkel' here in Antwerp.

Hello,

A dual grit Belgian should be more than adequate to maintain a straight razor. Just be sure to use a slurry when honing.

A Norton will only be faster cutting and would be a better choice if you are planning to restore a bunch of old razors.

I do not understand the paper cutting action. If you want to clean off any honing debris left on the blade then simply perform 3-5 backhoning strokes on a material with a short nap.

I think it's been mentioned before that cutting through paper, matchstick, small wood block will help to remove a wire edge. Removing it from a straight razor may leave a less than desirable (even & polished) edge without having to do more honing.

Most of the Honemeisters here will tell you (I believe) that you shouldn't get a wire edge before the razor is already sharp, and that a wire edge may be a product of over-honing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xChris

Most of the Honemeisters here will tell you (I believe) that you shouldn't get a wire edge before the razor is already sharp, and that a wire edge may be a product of over-honing.

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That's true, but recognizing when a razor has achieved that mystical level of perfection is probably beyond the scope of a 15 euro class :-) Meanwhile, teaching them to hone to a wire edge, remove it, then clean up the job on pastes is simple, easily teachable, and guaranteed to work with a minimum of frustration. It won't produce the finest edge out there, but it'll produce a decently shaving edge and can be taught in an hour.

A very good point, and may better explain why the technique exists at all.

What kind of paper are we talking about here? A piece of writing paper? A tissue or toilet paper?

I've used this technique a few times when I've accidently gotten an overhoned edge, and I just used a post-it note. I suspect that plain writing paper would work fine. You don't need to slice through the entire page, just a few inches does the job.

just regular paper, like a post-it

actually, I think if the teacher was convinced adding a norton and doing it differently would produce a better result he'd have said so. He owns a shave shop and also sells all these attributes after all. IMO the reason why he teaches this way is because this is the way they sharpen rasors at Dovo and Thiers-Issard (he explained the basic variations between the techniques they used, mainly involved the different kind of strops used). What also surprised me was that he said that razors you uy from Dovo and TI already come shave-ready when you guys say they are not, which is my main reason for thinking there is a way to get them much sharper. :|

sounds more like a guy who just doesnt know there is a better way... someone needs to anonymously mail him this thread ;-)

B

frankly his razors shave very smoothly, he shaved during class (with student rasors after verifying them) and allowed us to feel. Really BBS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by harold

What also surprised me was that he said that razors you uy from Dovo and TI already come shave-ready when you guys say they are not

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Maybe they ship their dull ones over here?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by graphix

sounds more like a guy who just doesnt know there is a better way... someone needs to anonymously mail him this thread ;-)

B

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I suspect it has to do with different definitions of 'dull'
My razor was as dull as a shovel. He didn't think there was any other option than sending it to dovo for reshaping the edge.

His definition of 'dull' therefore seems to be 'not sharp enough to shave anymore, but with the edge still intact'
With that in mind, you don't need more than the yellow coticule to touch it up every now and again.

Whereas the word 'dull' on this forum generally means 'what an edge feels like after chopping wood for half an hour'