Odd Flattening on Spine

On the image i posted below the blue line represents the flat spot on my new razor. the other side has even less of the blades length with a flat spot. the razor was bought from a reputable .com and "professionally honed" before being sent to me.
I tried to hone this razor and found it quite difficult as the area of the spine toward the heal was still the original width. The flattening that is on 2/3's of the blade is even and has a distinct stopping point (the right end of the blue line). The edge of the razor reflected light as if there was contact with the hone all the way from heel to toe, and it looked smooth. The razor did not shave when I received it, stropping on just leather did not help, stropping on the nylon webbing then the latigo also did nothing for my razor's shaving abilities. I am now disappointed because I am still quite new to all of this, and i am not sure how to even out the flat spot all the way across the spine so i can be able to hone it with some tape...

any ideas from you honemeisters will be greatly appreciated.
Attachment 105883
I am at work now, i will try to have pictures of the actual razor posted sunday, i will also be calling the .com on monday.

Sarcastically - "what a great deal i got to wait a month for a professional to force me to learn how to hone a professionally honed razor" lol

Do you know if the seller honed the razor, or it came straight from the factory?
If the razor has never been honed other than the factory, it is very likely it will need to be honed before use.
As far as the uneven spinewear, it could be a result of the poor honing job done in the factory. You will also need to check how flat the spine and edge are, lay the razor on the sides on a flat surface and see if they lay flat or not.

Looks like a Bismarck to me.

Check the spine for a warp with a true flat edge placed along the flats.

Regards,
Neil

mainaman,

It was purchased as an untouched factory 'shave ready' that i paid the extra $20 to have it sent to a professional to hone it before it was sent to me. ClassicShaving.com, they sent it to a guy in michigan before it was sent to me. The flat spot is about 1/16" (maybe just a bit less) vertically. it has some tilt if i put the whole blade on a flat block (i was a machinist for some years and have some instruments that are very accurate at checking flatness), if i put just the flat part on the block it does sit flat, but this way there is some of the edge that is hanging off the block also.

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Looks like a Bismarck to me.

Check the spine for a warp with a true flat edge placed along the flats.

Regards,
Neil

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why, yes it is a Bismarck, even though i labeled it bismark. what a noob.. lol

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Originally Posted by ThreeSGuy

why, yes it is a Bismarck, even though i labeled it bismark. what a noob.. lol

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...I thought you would like that!

Seriously though, if it was honed and only part of the shoulder is flattened, then I would have thought that the person who honed it saw that it was a little kinked and taped the spine, fully intending to wear the tape down to the metal - that way the bit of tape left would help elevate the spine to the correct degree. If I was doing it though, I would wear the spine down a bit rubbing the blade flat on the stone on both sides, then tape it and continue to wear the tape to the metal, then add a second layer of tape - that way you always have the buffer of the worn bit of tape left when you unpeel the top layer to renew it. That's just me though - it takes a couple of bevel resets, so it would probably be easier to use a narrow hone.

Regards,
Neil

Regards,
Neil

The first thing to address is your "newness". Is it like: This is the first time I ever shaved, and this razor don't shave. Or is it like: I've been shaving with a straight razor for a couple months, and this razor doesn't shave. In the world of new to the art people, it's quite common for a new person to find something they don't like about the razor they purchased, decide it won't shave, then shave with it and prove themselves right, then post a thread about the problem. It's nothing against you, but you're dealing with a reputable company, and it's fairly likely that you just don't have the requisite skills yet. Each honer leaves a different looking spine wear mark. At least from what I've seen. I've had razors with really wacked out looking spine wear, that shaved incredible. And one's that were perfectly perfect that didn't shave at all(not from pros btw). Point is, while your concerns are understood, and your opinion warranted, if your shaving skills aren't up to the task, then the razor is something we shouldn't be addressing yet. If you don't trust your .com, send it to someone you do trust. If you don't trust anybody, it's gonna be a long hard road.

If you're new, please just send the razor off. You can ask your .com for a honing refund I'm sure. Then use that money to have somebody you trust hone it. Then, accept that it's shave ready, and concentrate on figuring out how to shave with it.

I understand what you are saying Neil,
However, now that the shoulder is only flattened on 2/3's of the blade length, how do i make the entire length of the blade have the same amount of flatness so that i can keep the cutting edge straight. i am worried that the tang side of the spine being thicker will cause the toe end of edge to get over honed and cause my blade to smile down the road

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Originally Posted by regularjoe

The first thing to address is your "newness". Is it like: This is the first time I ever shaved, and this razor don't shave. Or is it like: I've been shaving with a straight razor for a couple months, and this razor doesn't shave

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I know it is different, but I have gained some technique through the use of a shavette. I saw it as an inexpensive way to test the waters. Is the dovo shavette that different from a dovo bismarck that i would not be using a good approach to my face? I really like everything involved with straight razor shaving. But the shavette does a great job, when i took the bismarck to my face it was tugging really bad, and had much trouble cutting arm hair much less even attempting to cut a hanging hair. i have done nothing but read for a week and a half now. everyone makes mistakes, im not sour at the .com i used, just want to know how to get my razor to shave. Maybe i will send it to Lynn and go from there.

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Originally Posted by ThreeSGuy

. the razor was bought from a reputable .com and "professionally honed" before being sent to me.
I tried to hone this razor and found it quite difficult as the area of the spine toward the heal was still the original width. The flattening that is on 2/3's of the blade is even and has a distinct stopping point (the right end of the blue line). The edge of the razor reflected light as if there was contact with the hone all the way from heel to toe, and it looked smooth. The razor did not shave when I received it, stropping on just leather did not help, stropping on the nylon webbing then the latigo also did nothing for my razor's shaving abilities. I am now disappointed because I am still quite new to all of this, and i am not sure how to even out the flat spot all the way across the spine so i can be able to hone it with some tape...

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I have read this a few times, and honestly am a bit confused..

You bought a razor that was honed, it didn't shave, so you decided the best course of action being new to this was to re-hone it ????

Now you are asking how to use an advanced taping method (What Neil is describing) to fix this razor..

Honestly my first e-mail would have been to the vendor to ask them about what they were going to do about it...

I have a funny feeling now you are going to have to fix this yourself, or send it to be re-honed

The tape technique Neil is talking about using ain't all that easy, for a brand new honer but basically you put one layer of tape on the spine, by honing on the spine it will wear the tape in the high spots faster, once the tape is worn, then you put a second layer on which gives an even surface to the hone now, during honing you never remove the first layer only replacing the second layer..
Basically this is a Straight razor form of Skim coating the spine,,

This technique is normally reserved for badly worn/warped old razors, a razor with simply one honing done, should just need one layer of tape to correct the problem...

BTW what hones are you using ???

gssixgun,
I have worked with metals extensively in my machinist days, often having a hand honed tolerance of +or- .0005 of an inch. I understand that this is in no way the same as putting a hollow ground razor to a stone, but i am familiar with what is happening to the materials. I did not actually 'hone' the razor. i put it to the hone and attempted to lay it flat to find that the issue was that the thick side of the spine did not allow it to sit flat. that is when i started asking for advice. As it is the weekend, i will not be able to contact the .com until monday, and was trying to find an alternate solution to sending it out. i have inspected the edge and (maybe im wrong in thinking this) feel as though i now have a high quality practice razor that once i get it honed up i will have an excellent shaver. as much as it is not advised anywhere i read, i find a great deal of satisfaction doing things myself.

i feel i may just send this one to Lynn and see what he does with it. as i mentioned above, i am not sour at the company who did it the first time. i have far more confidence in anyone who has honed before over my own abilities, but i would love to learn how to do it.

By the way gssixgun, thank you for all of your videos and forum posts, you have been a great source of information for me on my quest to shave the right way, i have definitely become a faceter-bater. :hmmm:

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

BTW what hones are you using ???

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I have a 5, 8, 12, set of Naniwa stones. i lapped them with 320 grit wet use sand paper on a piece of marble. i have yet to actually use them though.

Very Good answers :tu

I am very impressed by the fact that you looked, measured, and ASKED before grinding on metal... If only all newbs would do the same :p

I would see what the vendor's answer is, then decide for yourself which way you want to go as you already stated ..

I will tell you those Bismark Dovo's are awesome shavers, when they are honed in correctly,, I LOVE getting them in to hone...

Good luck with it all, and thanks for letting me know somebody is watching the Vids :)

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I will tell you those Bismark Dovo's are awesome shavers, when they are honed in correctly,, I LOVE getting them in to hone...

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I think Glen is Hinting to something here :hmmm:

If you feel confident I would try this yourself, nothing like learning to hone from actually experience! But it's safer for the razor to send it out. And learning to hone on a razor with a problem just adds more difficultly to something that's hard to get right in good situations. Might be cool if you lived close to a honer if you go there with your razor in person. I wish I could have that Opportunity.

Could you send real pictures of the blade that shows what's happening? But your drawing was good...

Nathaniel

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Originally Posted by 111Nathaniel

Could you send real pictures of the blade that shows what's happening? But your drawing was good...

Nathaniel

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I have had much support from this thread, thank you to all. I have formed a plan of action and will be carrying it out monday. But just to show everyone what the flat spot i am talking about looks like, i will post actual pics either tonight or tomorrow.

We all love getting Bismarcks in nice condition to hone:D

Fyi though, it is definitely a change going from a shavette to a 6/8 straight. You can get away with much more an open angle shaving with the shavette. The 6/8 Definitely needs a vertical approach.

Have fun.

Good to know you're getting it handled. If it makes you feel any better, I think all but one of the razors i use have more wear at the toe than heel & they've all been honed only once or twice each. Some smile is generally a good thing in a razor, so my plan is to just let them continue developing in that direction.

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Originally Posted by Lynn

We all love getting Bismarcks in nice condition to hone:D

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Good, Because it will be on its way to SRD monday! It will be a pleasure knowing that the ''Guru of facial Guillotine's'' will have honed my razor. :tameshigiri:

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Originally Posted by Lynn

The 6/8 Definitely needs a vertical approach.

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I assume by vertical you mean more parallel to my face, maybe a 20 degree angle from laying flat on my skin?

That will work. When starting out with a straight, the tendency is to bend your wrist back especially in the chin area, opening up the angle.

Have fun

Attachment 105883 I think what has happened is the honer used a heal leading stroke, which would not place the entire spine in contact expecially on a shoulderless grind like the bismark. I surmise your machining experience caused you to inspect the razor, figure there was a problem and try to fix it. Now you might be skilled with a shavette, but how skilled are you at stroping? I suspect the edge could have been rolled in your attempt to strop it fixed. Edit: To have wear as far down the spine as you show you would like, you will nead to use a toe leading honing stroke.

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Originally Posted by livingontheedge

but how skilled are you at stroping?

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i did try to shave with it first, then made an attempt to strop. It did get better after i stropped it, but still pulled.

Advices is very impressive. But it looks like you would have quite a bit of work ahead of you. Before I started I'd give the seller a call or email to see what he recommends. May be a problem he's familiar with and may just send you another.

Hi ThreeSGuy,

I have a different Dovo with that same 6/8 shoulderless blade, and love it. I do hone it with the heel forward, but have never looked that closely at the hone wear. Until just now, and I see that the hone wear line is a tiny bit narrower where you indicate no hone wear on your own. With my own blades, I do a bevel set without tape to be sure that the spine and edge do settle into one another properly. I then continue the honing without tape so that the edge and spine get the same degree of polish. After that, maybe I'll use tape in the future.

A professional honer might not pay this much attention to making the edge user-friendly for future nonprofessional honers, and instead apply strokes or other tricks that you learn over thousands of blades. I have a Dovo that was honed by one of the pros, and it came to me with a wonderful edge. However, it did not come ready for an amateur to maintain it. There's a very slight warp in the blade, and I've yet to get the bevel and edge to match up really nicely. I've gotten better at honing, and can tweak my strokes to follow the blade's peculiar curve, but don't want to work that hard at it and don't find that it lends the blade any charming character. It just makes it a pain to hone.

So some possible histories of your blade are that a) it shouldn't really have passed initial quality control and been sent back for a better factory bevel set, b) the pro honer in Michigan used some advanced techniques to coax a good edge from it, c and beyond) OK, I don't know enough to speculate any further.

But I think the correction will be a tapeless bevel set, maybe at the expense of some gold wash. I don't remember where the gold is on those blades. My model is just plain steel with the notches across the spine. Anyway, that's the aggressive approach I'd take. But I'm not a pro.

Good luck. I hope the actual solution is a happy one for you.

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Originally Posted by roughkype

I see that the hone wear line is a tiny bit narrower where you indicate no hone wear on your own.

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It is a defined shoulder between the wear and no-wear spots. it wouldnt be a problem if i could get it to sit flat on the stone. the no-wear spot creates a three point contact between the blade and the stone, instead of sitting flush.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by roughkype

Good luck. I hope the actual solution is a happy one for you.

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thank you

Here is the picture of my blade. The opposite side has more wear on less length of the blade, but my camera wouldn't focus on the side that does not have the bismarck logo (go figure). The picture doesn't show that much wear, but as it did not shave right out of the box, and will not sit flat on the hone, 'I' think there is something wrong. Also as this is my first true straight, I am unfamiliar with what it is supposed to be like.
Attachment 106206

Three-point contact is wrong. Rather than throwing good money after bad, you should exchange it.

It's a really quick change from hone wear to no hone wear, you'd think if it was done with normal honing the change would be more gradual. Not so abrupt ending to the wear. Very nice razor however.

Nathaniel.

WOW. the guy at customer service told me that the flat spot on my razor was from the way dovo manufactures their razors.... he said the sharpening service they use tapes ALL the razors they hone. First off, i doubt the spine flattening would be from the manufacturer, second, why is it different on both sides, third, there should be a memo letting the customer know that the honing service uses tape when they hone. not happy at all now... I sent them an email with the picture of my razor, they will contact me back.

I hope that the person looking at your picture understands what he sees. If the spine flattening was along the full length, it'd be OK, but it isn't, and you're getting three-point contact on a flat surface. You should have two-line contact, the spine and the edge, from a properly honed blade. Many folks at AOS won't know that. I've been in a couple of their stores and the staff were cute women who didn't know anything about the straights. Not that cute women are dumb or untrainable, but I suspect they were hired primarily to get guys to walk in from the mall. AOS has some nice creams and lots of great handles for disposable blades, and I think that's their focus.

Be patient with whomever you're dealing with, noncombative, so they'll want to help you instead of want to blow you off. They're a big enough gig that they don't have to care so much about reputation. They don't need to know you'll never do business with them again until you've got what you want from this transaction. And even then they don't need to know.

I suspect that any service honing brand-new blades, especially ones with some spine decoration, will tape them. I would by default, unless the owner specifically said not to. I'd volunteer to fix this one up for you, but know enough to know I'm not smart enough yet to make it better. I'd trust Glen or Lynn with it. Maybe in ten more years I'd trust myself with it.

Good luck for a good outcome. I'm reading along with interest.

In my humble opinion, it looks to me like it was honed on a mechanical flat wheel with the heel forward (or leading)...this allowed only the portion of the spine seen with wear to contact the wheel, but the entire length of the edge could have been honed this way.

I am fairly new to honing razors, but I seem to recall an old video of Dovo production that showed exactly what I am describing (except for the lack of spine contact toward the tang).

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Originally Posted by ThreeSGuy

customer service told me the sharpening service they use tapes ALL the razors they hone

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the cusstomer service rep i talked to said "it turns out that the the particular guy that sharpened my razor did not use tape." i was told to just keep using it and i will get better... im done with their customer service.

im still quite new, but there are enough videos out there that show how easily a honed razor will take care of a beard, or arm hair..

Well, I think that the folks you talked to don't know straight razors, or decided not to care. One post-factory honing couldn't have caused that three-point contact you've got, and even a tapeless honing wouldn't have left that distinct shoulder. In fact, you'd be able to see some hone wear right on the high side of that shoulder, at least with a hand lens.

It looks to me like your blade left the factory but shouldn't have. Have you asked to exchange or return it?

It's not that it can't be made right; a pro honer could correct the spine, as long as the blade itself isn't warped, but you shouldn't have to spend more money on something that should work correctly now.

Sorry to hear this is turning into a hassle for you. Where do you live? There may be someone nearby who can help you out.

Best wishes.

roughkype,
I live south of Detroit. The last email they sent me said the sharpening service did a good job, and I just needed to use better technique and face prep. I asked them to, at a minimum, refund the $20 I spent on the honing, and they have pretty much told me that it they did a good job and it is my fault I am having trouble.

That is common and sensible advice for new straight razor users. It does not, however, address the out-of-flat faults you found. Oh well.