What makes for comfort?

I'm at the point in my honing where I can pretty easily get an edge that'll pop hairs like crazy. But sometimes that edge causes some irritation when I shave with it.

What makes an edge comfortable? How can a screamin' sharp edge feel rough and uncomfortable sometimes?

I'm using a Norton and 1 and .5 micron pastes. I usually get the razor to catch and cut hairs off the 4K side, then move on to the 8K for 25 laps with some pressure and 5 to 10 laps with no pressure. Then 10 to 20 laps on the 1 micron and 10 to 20 on the .5. Sometimes I do some work on a Swaty before I go to the pastes, depending on how the edge is behaving off the 8K.

Also, when you guys talk about a "smooth" edge, are you referring to the whole bevel, or just the actual edge?

It's possible that the problem is my shaving technique. Ironically, I've been honing since August but only shaving for about three or four weeks, so I still go through phases where I irritate the heck out of my face and then have to take it easy for a couple of days...

Thanks,
Josh

What's the paste material? Chromium oxide is supposed to give a smoother edge than diamond abrasive of the same particle size.
Your technique could also be suspect. Remember, 30 degrees and no pressure. More passes without pressure will irritate less than fewer passes with pressure.

I'm using diamond paste. FiReSTaRT, people are going to start calling you a pusher, the way you've been promoting your chromium powder around here lately... :)

I think my technique is probably part of the issue. I'll keep tryin'...

Josh

I've never tried diamond, BUT...
1) I get STELLAR shaves from razors finished on 0.5mic CrO2, ultra-smooth and comfortable
2) The smoothness angle came from the big Kahuna himself -- Randy Tuttle, so I have no reasons to doubt his word.
If I go with diamond, it will probably be just 0.25 but I don't need it for now and I do need to keep an eye on my cash-flow.

I have used .5 diamond and the .5 chromium oxide, and I far prefer the chromium oxide.

Hmmm... I'd hate to quit using the diamond paste, since I just shelled out $14 for each tube... I forsee a possible session involving saddle soap, a Tony Miller paddle strop, and lots of scrubbing by me.

I'll have to see how the next few weeks go.

So comfort is mainly determined by the final polish of the edge?

Josh

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So comfort is mainly determined by the final polish of the edge?

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I'm by no means an expert on honing as I've resigned myself to the fact that I can't hone for shite but,

I have five razors in my rotation all honed perfectly by Joe with one that I got from Garry that was honed by Bill and I can say that the comfort level is different with them all.

None of them is uncomfortable but they are all different. My DD is very smooth whilst others shave just as well but with a different feel, hard to describe.

Early on it was my tecnique that gave me razor burn.

Sooo, my 0.02c is that the steel is different as the sharpness, tecnique and prep are the same no matter which razor I use.

Just a thought

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Originally Posted by joshearl

It's possible that the problem is my shaving technique. Ironically, I've been honing since August but only shaving for about three or four weeks, so I still go through phases where I irritate the heck out of my face and then have to take it easy for a couple of days...

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That's your technique - either your blade is too dull and you're using too much pressure, or your angle is too steep, or both. The level of polish doesn't have anything to do with this, it just makes the blade feel smoother and softer. A sharp CrOx polished edge feels almost velvety while shaving.

Right on mp :nj Spread the CrO2 gospel brotha :cool:

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Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT

Right on mp :nj Spread the CrO2 gospel brotha :cool:

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I'm totally going to hop on that train myself soon. Choo-Choo on the CrO2!

I believe Keith makes pre-mixed pastes and liquids if you don't have 3-5 guys to go splits with on a lb of powder. Ever since I've been using it, I've been doing incredible amounts of faceturbation :eek:

I can't take it anymore! :eek:

That's it, I'm off to HA to get some .5 micron CrO2 for a piece of wood. I have been experiencing some less than smooth but otherwise sharp edges the last couple of times.

As was already noted, Ducks are usually pretty smooth, as well as my 8/8 Fili, 6/8 Helje and Puma... But the 8/8W&B and the 13/16 Engstrom, among few, could be smoother.

Cheers
Ivo

OK, so if I'm getting this right, if an edge is sharp enough to pop hairs it's more than likely sharp enough for a comfortable shave, and it's my shave technique that needs more work.

Assuming, of course, that the edge is pretty even and doesn't have a lot of micro-chips or anything.

My edges look pretty good under magnification, so I really think it might be my shaving technique. I'll keep at it.

Josh

Hey Josh,

When are you evaluating the razor's shave? Right after honing? Or two or three shaves after honing? I was reading on here that shaving improves after a few shaves.

I'm going to guess that happens because by the 4th shave after honing, you will have stropped your razor 100-200 times. It's probably because you've polished the blade over time on the stop (and your face) so the edge is even smoother.

Does that sound feasible to you guys who know more about this?

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Originally Posted by joshearl

OK, so if I'm getting this right, if an edge is sharp enough to pop hairs it's more than likely sharp enough for a comfortable shave, and it's my shave technique that needs more work.

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Nope :nono:. Popping hairs is a proxy for the shave test, and whose utility lies in its speed and ease of using it at the hone more than its accuracy. Once the razor can pop hair this usually just means it's getting close.

There are subtleties to the hair test that you learn over time, like *how* does the hair pop off - a blade that merely topples hair onto the blade is sharper than one that pops them, for instance. There are also issues of how does the hair react if you approach it obliquely (simulating an against-the-grain cut on a flat-lying hair).

The "true" rule is: the razor is sharp enough for a comfortable shave when it's capable of delivering a comfortable shave. But this isn't a terribly useful test while you're hunched over the 4k :shrug:, so other proxies have been devised that are more helpful if less accurate. But it's the only rule that matters in the end, unless you're willing to dry-shave by popping a hair at a time, in which case I guess the hair test may be pretty accurate.

And you can't really get a comfortable shave from the 4k no matter how sharp it is -- the blade feels harsh and the shave won't be much fun.

I knew somebody was going to say this. :cry:

I know what you mean about subtleties with the hair test: I think I've seen all the different responses by now. Sometimes it can be maddening.

So what I really should be doing is herding swarthy Mediterranean men into a cell in my basement, where they'll be standing by with excess stubble at all times. :)

Thanks again for all the help,
Josh

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Originally Posted by mparker762

Nope :nono:. Popping hairs is a proxy for the shave test, and whose utility lies in its speed and ease of using it at the hone more than its accuracy. Once the razor can pop hair this usually just means it's getting close.

There are subtleties to the hair test that you learn over time, like *how* does the hair pop off - a blade that merely topples hair onto the blade is sharper than one that pops them, for instance. There are also issues of how does the hair react if you approach it obliquely (simulating an against-the-grain cut on a flat-lying hair).

The "true" rule is: the razor is sharp enough for a comfortable shave when it's capable of delivering a comfortable shave. But this isn't a terribly useful test while you're hunched over the 4k :shrug:, so other proxies have been devised that are more helpful if less accurate. But it's the only rule that matters in the end, unless you're willing to dry-shave by popping a hair at a time, in which case I guess the hair test may be pretty accurate.

And you can't really get a comfortable shave from the 4k no matter how sharp it is -- the blade feels harsh and the shave won't be much fun.

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I realize there are those honemeisters who can make a pakistani shave like a dream but for me though all my razors give great shaves some are better than others and even among new razors of the same brands and models some just shave better and no matter how much honing and fiddling I do I can't get them to all shave equally. Now when I talk about differences here I'm talking about razors that all give equally close shaves but the comfort factor is where they differ. I believe its a combination of the grinding job as well as the razor itself. Some razors just don't have it in them to give that smooth as glass feel as you shave. Of course this is a matter of degree and it may be small potatoes but its a fact. I know there are some who say some razors are just more difficult to hone than others and it just takes more effort with some but I don't see that as a valid reason with some razors.

I think basically you have to accept that though all razors can be expected to shave equally as close its in the comfort factor where you'll see these differences and that's just the way it is. I have about 50 razors now and they are both new and vintage of all brands and I would say about 15 give shaves of the highest order with another 15 very close behind and the balance give just great shaves but you can feel them working on your face, not pulling or anything like that, no irritation but its not that smooth as glass stroke.

So the moral of the story is when you're honing your razors know the limitations of each razor and everyone has limitations right? Or at least thats what Dirty Harry says.

The comfort of my shave was improved by using a pre-shave cream. The medications that I take have made my skin more sensitive and the strong soap that I use in the shower takes the oil off my skin. Realizing this I started using a face cream to resupply the oils to my skin. Not much, just a bit, rubbed in very well. Then I apply the lather over that. It has noticeably improved the comfort of my shaves.

Just my two cents,:)

Randy, have you tried using a mild hair conditioner instead? It noticeably improves my shave quality.

This ones easy. The balance between your 4K passes and 8K passes is off. You can't smooth out the edge with .5 or less without "pre-smoothing" the edge on 8k. You need more 8k.

Add 20 passes with 8K, the last 5 really lightly. Try this atleast twice before hitting .5, watch out for overhoning.

So next time increase your ration of 8K strokes. You'll not need the .5 paste if you do this correctly.

Once you do this, you'll realize this is a new month. Time to learn lots of new stuff. :)

The other, less likely possibility, is that your face is sensing an overhoned or what I call a "pre-overhoned" edge. It may be overhoned but not provide proof against whatever overhoning test you might be using. Again, this is less likely of the two IMHO.

Alan,

I've been following your routine--4K till the razor passes the HHT, 20 8K laps with pressure, then 5 to 10 laps with no pressure. I'm having much better luck with this than with pyramids. I can consistently get a razor to pass the HHT this way, usually on my first try.

You're suggesting that I might need another 20 or so 8K laps to smooth the edge out further?

I've been doing 20 to 30 laps on my 1 micron pasted strop before going to the .5 micron. Do you think I still need some more 8K smoothing though?

Sometimes it seems like the 8K becomes counterproductive past a certain point. Then I have to go back to the 4K for a couple of light strokes.

If the 8K is so beneficial, why do most guys have success with pyramids, which throw the 4K into the mix pretty frequently?

Thanks,
Josh

The pyramids were put together as a "structured method" that new guys could use to get a razor honed to shaving sharpness.
They are certainly not the only or best way. You are now at the point where you are beginning to understand that each razor has its own requirements and that you have to adjust your honing routine accordingl.

What I notice from your posts in this thread was that you are using a lot of different hones and pastes for each razor, .. I think you are overdoing it. Keep the Swaty out of your routine when you are using any other 8k hone. Also try dropping the 1.0 micron and see what happens.

AFDavis also has some good suggestions that you might want to consider but I do think that you are almost overhoning the edge.

Lastly, the sharpness of the edge and the smoothness of the shave are not the same. For a smooth comfortable shave a person really needs to focus on beard prep and shaving technique as much as or more than the sharpness of the edge.

The smoothness of the edge is determined by the steel itself and the abrasives used to hone it. There is no magical best method or abrasive. Use what you have and learn to use it well. Then when you are so inclined try some other methods and tools.

Your on the right track:)

Randy,

I was using the Swaty because I was having some trouble passing the HHT off of my Norton. Turned out it needed re-lapping, so I'm not using it anymore. Now I get it HHT sharp off the Norton and just go straight to the 1 micron paste.

With my recent discovery about my stropping, I'm feeling like I'm making more progress now. My razors are sharp enough, and I think my shaving technique is coming along, too.

I'm getting there...

Josh