Razor is pulling ... 1000 on the C12k?

My razor hasn't seen a whole hell of a lot of action, but it's tugged me a bit. Maybe a thing with the lather (I used Tabac instead of Proraso this time). I learned recently that the Dovo Astrale simply will not work if the lather is dry--the Feather AC works fantastically with thick, frothy lather, sure, but when you bring up a real straight razor you learn that you actually need 3-4 times as much water to get a good cut (and what a cut! Best damn shave I ever had! Prego!)

Anyway. Razor seems to be pulling. I don't think I'm warranted to go back to the Norton 4k/8k routine here. The Norton is fantastic for a truly dull blade, and I've buffed a knick out of a blade (hit the faucet pretty hard) in 20 minutes using only the 4k/8k, but that's the point: I don't want to remove a fantastic amount of metal.

To my senses, this is just maintenance. The blade has started to wear after a few dozen uses from a very amateur attempt at putting a blade on. That means I got it sharp enough to shave, but perhaps I didn't finish the job. Who knows? In any case a dozen or a hundred shaves, it matters not: eventually the blade will go from viciously sharp to less viciously sharp, and I'll notice less cutting power; I noticed a few weeks back that the blade was not pulling, but was cutting less spectacularly than it had initially. At that point I should have touched the blade up.

So now what?

Maybe 1000 laps on the Chinese 12k natural? I know it's a slow cutter, plus high grit--I'm aiming to put an edge on the blade without gratuitously grinding off metal.

What other options should I consider? I know some seem sold on glass stones or Nawina 30k(!); I feel this is excessive. Perhaps a stone that cuts faster and/or provide a better finish, maybe Nawina 15k? I don't think the 3k difference matters at this point, so much as that it's synthetic and would put a synthetic finish (mirror) on instead of a natural finish (cloudy).

I need to steady my hand some more first, and learn to make those long cross-strokes (X stroke etc) evenly so that I have a blade properly sharpened along its whole length rather than finished in sections.

This is what barber hones were made for... That said, my barber hone is somewhere around 8K. I think I would just do a reduced number of laps on the 8k side and finish on the PHIG. 1000 laps on anything is craziness.

I am not sure what you experience level is, but I would start out with a few (perhaps 5) laps on your Chinese natural...If it is pulling a little but otherwise shaving well, you are probably not that far from home...heck some would just use a loaded strop.

In any event, I do not think it should warrant anywhere near 1000 strokes

Going farther, I feel if I need more than 10-20 strokes on my 12K I go back to my 8K. As much as I would like to get more time/value out of them, these expensive stones should get used the least...

Sorry, I completely missed the whole first paragraph. It seems you may be unsure of a few basic things. Considering that, are you sure that you put a shave ready edge on the razor in the first place? Do you have a shave ready edge to compare it to?

The amount of pulling you are describing needs to be solved with sharpening level of honing (4Kish level). Barber's hones are perfect for this and are a higher grit level but will sharpen fast as well (5-9 strokes).

A finishing hone (12K) or higher is not going to help with the amount of pulling you are experiencing.

If I was in your situation I would do the following:

Soak the norton 4/8K
make light strokes on the 4K side (start with 20 and then flip the stone)
try the 8K side, if black comes off on the 8K side you did not finish on the 4K side and flip back over!

when you are done with the 8K side make VERY light strokes with the hone wiped off by your hand so it is damp. When you cut arm or leg hair the hairs should fall, not fly or jump and not pull. If they do you may have to go back to the 8K and make 10 more strokes....then 5 more...etc.

Try this.

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Originally Posted by DFriedl

I think I would just do a reduced number of laps on the 8k side and finish on the PHIG. 1000 laps on anything is craziness.

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Slow and steady wins the race. I thought going on a slower hone would just make it take longer? My thinking is that once technique is set I should be able to slowly remove metal and produce a sharp blade; having such skill as to understand the proper and correct sharpening of the blade, I should be able to use more advanced tools such as faster and deeper cutters (i.e. diamond or lower grit stones) to bypass portions of the work.

It occurs to me that a high amount of experience and skill is needed before one could effectively use intermediate levels of cutting grit. rather than blindly following vague prescribed sharpening schedules. A 4k grit synthetic hone has physically larger particles which cut physically deeper than a 15k grit synthetic; if you don't remove at least half the depth via an 8k (which we assume has particles 1/2 as large and thus cuts 1/2 as deep), you have not completed your job with the 8k. Beyond that point, every stroke with the 8k is wasted, yes? Yet up to that point, a large portion of the surface is out of reach of the 8k cutting surface, and so the 8k effectively strips the peaks and smooths the cut.

The skill to know when my razor benefits no further from a given grit and, conversely, when it would benefit more from a decreased grit is one I don't yet have. We can talk theory about how hones cut razors all day; this will not make me a honing expert, but it will perhaps give me a better starting point to hone my skill toward that end.

Cutting with a higher grit stone would both remove metal more slowly and provide valuable experience training myself to make the correct motions without defect; or so is my expectation. Perhaps this expectation is wrong? It is at least probable that the value of such experience is overestimated: my beard hair is as iron wire, it destroys razor blades.

PHIG?

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Originally Posted by unit

heck some would just use a loaded strop.
Going farther, I feel if I need more than 10-20 strokes on my 12K I go back to my 8K. As much as I would like to get more time/value out of them, these expensive stones should get used the least...

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I particularly avoid chromed/diamond strops. They appear to me an inferior shortcut. Plus leather flexes, and the direction of travel is wrong. As nobody has ever claimed there's nothing wrong with just using stones, I'd rather stick to stones.

The C12k is uh. 10 bucks. 20 if you want it lapped. Japanese synthetics might cost a good deal more though, yeah.

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Originally Posted by DFriedl

Sorry, I completely missed the whole first paragraph. It seems you may be unsure of a few basic things. Considering that, are you sure that you put a shave ready edge on the razor in the first place? Do you have a shave ready edge to compare it to?

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It shaved better than any DE and (once I got the lather mixed up right) it definitely outperformed the Feather AC with any blade (fresh or through a few uses) for a while there. I had Lynn hone it ages ago, but having no clue how to shave (it was painful AFTER I got it back from Lynn, obviously I did something wrong) and having damaged the blade hitting the faucet I had used the 4k to completely redo the edge. Eventually I put it away.

It's been a couple years, I just recently brought it out and gave it a few passes on the 8k and on the C12k and became determined to make the damn thing work for me. As such, at the moment I have no idea what I'm doing--a defect that requires as much attention as the dulling edge of my razor.

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Originally Posted by Disburden

The amount of pulling you are describing needs to be solved with sharpening level of honing (4Kish level).

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Interesting. So blade maintenance is not particularly obvious until it's time to start from zero again?

There are different levels of pulling that can happen with a razor that needs to be honed and a razor that needs a touch up. If you are experiencing a "wow that pulls...ough" kind of pulling then I would go back to the sharpening level.

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Originally Posted by Disburden

There are different levels of pulling that can happen with a razor that needs to be honed and a razor that needs a touch up. If you are experiencing a "wow that pulls...ough" kind of pulling then I would go back to the sharpening level.

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Interesting. I'll try again with a familiar lather to get a more controlled test.

What about if it doesn't feel like it pulls painfully, but doesn't seem to take it down past stubble? Like, after shaving I have stubble, and no increasing number of passes will shave the stubble, but it seems to shave general beard hair well enough?

It sounds like the edge isn't all there anymore, I would definitely try the 4/8 suggestion I mentioned. Why do you use lather on the hone? I only use it on my barber hones on a norton I use water in a spray bottle or mixed with a little dish soap. You shouldn't have stubble after a number of passes, a finishing hone won't help you with that.


If you wipe the razor through your leg hair does it cut through it half length above the skin?

my buddy, Sham, made a video on using the 4/8K norton. please check it out, he is a master honer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQWhF...ruyr7BoKDcLdPg

Okay, I have a couple pieces of advice here.

First, step away from the hones. They aren't doing what you think they are doing.

I'm pretty doubtful at this point that you are honing properly and if that's the case, then 1,000 strokes on a cnat aren't likely to help you.

You should definitely work on steadying your hand first, and learn how to do a good x-stroke.

Second, you have to realize that the 4/8 hone is not a super-agressive hone to be avoided. Both sides are much slower than more agressive waterstones, and diamond plates. The 8k side especially is a slow, polishing stone that will not damage your razor.

Disburden, is right that a few strokes on both sides of the stone will bring you back to shaving sharp. If you are still very worried about damaging your razor on the 4k, then just try 10 strokes on 8k and test shave.

The best plan might be to send your blade to a pro for honing until you are able to consistently produce a suitable lather for shaving.

Michael

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Originally Posted by mjsorkin

You should definitely work on steadying your hand first, and learn how to do a good x-stroke.

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No kidding.

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Second, you have to realize that the 4/8 hone is not a super-agressive hone to be avoided. Both sides are much slower than more agressive waterstones, and diamond plates. The 8k side especially is a slow, polishing stone that will not damage your razor.

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Dunno, I slapped my razor pretty hard against the sink and reset the bevel on the 4k no problem. I don't have much to compare to here though; and removing metal doesn't necessarily mean sharp.

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Originally Posted by Disburden

Why do you use lather on the hone? I only use it on my barber hones on a norton I use water in a spray bottle or mixed with a little dish soap.

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No the lather goes on my face, though lather on a hone might be interesting. A Feather AC fake straight razor cuts with basically anything (after the first pass, water works), a real straight razor won't cut unless the lather's just right--and then it cuts fantastically.

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If you wipe the razor through your leg hair does it cut through it half length above the skin?

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Well yeah, my arm/leg hair is like silk; my facial hair is like iron. Sometimes I question if the razor's really any harder.

Hmm that video is educational. I wonder why more metal comes off when the razor is not honed enough at lower grit...

Confucius say- man with dull razor and no idea what to do with hone wind up with no good razor.

Do yourself a favor and do some reading before you attempt to sharpen your razor. You have good advice in this series of threads.

I think having a dull razor, and the ambition to do something about it and possessing the correct hones for the job, is a great opportunity to find out on your own what refreshing the edge actually entails. The razor should not have been shaved with to the point where it needed to be brought down to the Norton 4k in the first place, don't know where it is now but you should try with the Norton 8k. 10-20 laps. Back up to the People's Hone of Indeterminate Grit (PHIG) aka Chinese 12k (C12K). If you want to gain some honing skill without the feel of lower grits (Norton 4k would feel very different, for example) you can do your 1,000 laps on the Chinese hone, just remember if the edge is out of whack you might not be able to bring it back with that, if it is recoverable with that stone no doubt you would have micro-chipping of some sort with that many laps. I did the same on my 2"x8" Spyderco Ultra-Fine for awhile, using the highest grit because I knew it wouldn't be removing steel excessively.

Back to a practical solution. I can't tell you how many laps after the 10-20 on Norton 8k (if the edge is recoverable). Or maybe 40 laps on 8k? On the PHIG? 20? 50? 100?! You will have to find the answer to that question. It is an opportunity to develop a genuine relationship with your own razor and hone. Embrace it. You seem to have gone to the 4k and worked on it a bit. You probably shouldn't drop back down to that. When I kept my razor free from pasted strops when I needed to refresh it I only needed to put it back on the highest (finishing) hone, after a good stropping of course, for maybe 5-15 laps. But that's when I didn't let the edge get too dull. If your wiry beard destroys razors and you let it go too far... Norton 8k. If you need to go beyond that you know you want to refresh more often.

Don't send it out. This is a really good opportunity for you.

The "C12K" might be slow, but not that slow, 1000 laps is crazy talk... :)

I've done razors on the C12K using the one-stone method and it was fairly straight-forward and easy, check out gssixguns video on Youtube. You should be able to bring the razor back.

If the razor hit the sink your bevel may not be set properly...

I took it to the 4k after I hit the sink, that was ages ago. A lot of metal had to come off to get a straight edge again.

Ok, if this thing is "tugging" it's kinda grabbing some hairs and cutting others...is this close to what you're trying to say? Pulling...I think is grabbing and not cutting at all or only a few hairs. If it's tugging start at your 8k do 10 laps, 15 laps on the Chinese, strop and do a test pass on your face (keep some lather handy for this), if it gets better, then repeat until you get what you want. If it's "pulling" then start with 10 on 4k, 15 on 8k, and 15 on Chinese, strop and test shave..better? repeat, worse? there's probably a problem with the bevel. You won't know until you try this atleast. The 4k is not an aggressive stone, it can be used that way but it's meant to refine your bevel (your bevel setter is the aggressive stone), 6k and up are just really going to polish and refine the scratch marks or your previous hones and remove metal on a microscopic level...think sanding wood with 6k, 8k, and 12k paper, you won't notice it without a microscope.

Can I see a pic of the razor with as good a shot as you can get of the full bevel from toe to heel...


TIA

A pic of the bevel would be nice, I'm betting it has to be re set. You should send the blade out to get honed professionally. You'll have a bench mark. Buy a cheap old razor that you can practice honing on. My two cents.

Well as per the video, the razor doesn't leave grey metal streaks on the 8000. It also doesn't cut arm hair freely though, only once the hair is semi-braced against the skin.

I've got the stones soaking in a bucket, I usually do a half hour soak but these have been in water since last night and they seem to grab a hell of a lot better. The C12K shouldn't be permeable, but there's a lot of friction with it and I recall this being a rather frictionless hone... the 8k sucks the blade into the surface, 12k does a little too.

It still sounds like you are polishing a dull bevel...
You need to set a bevel and test shave to see how the razor cuts. You can shave on a bevel setting level.