So The Noob Went And Bought A Coticule...

Hello SRP,

Over the last month or so I have really started to take an interest to honing, and I must say that I'm getting better at it slowly but surely. I've been practicing with my crapola Gold Dollar razors that I bought to teach myself how to hone, and I figure if I can get those to hold an edge then I'll have less problems honing something a little nicer (at least that's my hope).

My current setup is a King 1k & Naniwa SS 1k for bevel-setting, then a Norton 4/8, followed by a Chinese 12k for finishing. Lately though, I have really been fascinated with the possiblility of "condensing" the bulk of this process into using one single stone, so I started reading up on Coticules. I have watched the Unicot & Dilucot methods very closely and I must say that the process(es) are intriguing to me. So what did I (the honing noob) do? I went ahead and bought myself a 2x6" select-grade Coticule!

Now I'm wondering; did I get myself in over my head? Should I learn to master the other processes (the Norton 48, Naniwas, etc..) before attempting to use the Coticule? Is it really that much harder to learn? I kind of equate it to learning how to drive on a stick-shift (which I did), so I'm definitely up for the challenge. In fact I think that's what drew me to wanting to use a coti, is the potential for it to be harder to master. How else am I supposed to try it, though? I don't know anyone who owns one, so I figured it's worth the $$ to have a new & challenging hobby!!

Does anyone have any tips/advice for a noob wanting to get into Coticule honing? I would greatly appreciate any input, even if it's "dude you're not ready for that yet!!!" :p

Hi!

Seems like you already know a bit about finishing on a coticule as you quote unicot and dilucot (terms I don't much care for, to be honest!).

To be brutally honest, a coticule is just a hone, a hone with it's own pecularities and different ways of using, but a hone nevertheless. It isn't really any harder to learn - using it will teach you that.

What is different about coticules - and I stress that this is my opinion - is the almost folk-lore like mythos that has surrounded them.

No doubt they give a smooth shave - at the expense of sharpness.
No doubt you can set a bevel on one - if you've got nothing else to do for a few hours and the coticule is a fast cutter and not too hard.
No doubt you can get a sharp and not 'mushy' edge - if the coticule is hard enough and slow enough.

You just have to figure out what type of stone you have - very soft, medium soft, soft, soft/hard, hard, very hard. The very soft ones are good for repair work as they cut relatively fast, but in my experience they are useless for a decent shaving edge. The very hard ones give an edge that is sharp and not at all mushy, but are useless for repair work - just finishers, and pricey ones at that. In the middle you have a stone that can cut fast enough to do a bit of repair work and can set a half-decent edge. As it comes in the middle range, it often turns out to be a bit of a middling stone. I think I must have bought and resold 30 or more of them that I used extensively before I realised this. I read the other day that the ratio of 'keepers' to 'sell-on-again' stones averaged around 1 decent one to 20 sell agains amongst a sample of users - can't think where I read this, or even whether I am recalling correctly - it may have been here or on another forum.

I don't mean to put you off - far from it - coticules can be fun to use and for a lot of people they serve their purpose well. But they aren't the magic bullet of the hone world, and if you keep chasing it you can end up spending an awful lot of money. You might end up really appeciating that chinese hone...

Regards,
Neil

Neil,

Thanks. As a veteran knife sharpener with a decent depth of knowledge of abrasives and grinding/polishing steels/alloys, you shared a lot of opinions I hold for addressing blades. As a novice razor honer, I presumed (nearly word for word) what you shared above, but lacked any real world experience other than using edges created with coticules, Eschers, synthetics, etc. (I have only honed on synthetics).

I have no doubt that great stones can do great things...in the hands of people with great skills. The concern I hold is finding that great stone...I like the results I get with synthetics...and I still have much to learn;)

There are two schools of thought when it comes to coticules. The first camp thinks that you should master honing techniques on synthetics first. The second camp thinks that you can dive right in and learn how to use a coticule right away. I happen to believe that, given time and patience, there is nothing wrong with learning how to use it while learning synthetics too. The basic principles are the same, it just takes practice and experimentation. If that sounds like your "thing" then you should have no problem. But you will have to figure out what your stone is capable of first, and the only way to determine that is by using it. You should be able to asses your stone's hardness by how easily it releases slurry. BTW - my first hone was a coticule..... :)

With all due respect to Mr. Miller, I happen to really enjoy the smooth edges from a coticule and wouldn't consider a loss of sharpness to be a caveat of these stones. Some will disagree with me no doubt, but it's JMHO.

Thanks a lot for the replies! I just saw gssixgun's video on Coticule honing which was very helpful too.
On a plus note, I just finished honing a vintage Boker on my Norton 4/8 w/a King 1k to set the bevel, and I was able to get it VERY sharp off the 8k (no 12k used at all)... so I'm thinking that maybe I'll be ready to "progress" to using the Coti pretty soon! I still have some work to do learning the Norton though, and would like to learn that first before I dive in to the Coti...

pps - The Boker shaves wondefully!!

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Originally Posted by Ryan82

With all due respect to Mr. Miller, I happen to really enjoy the smooth edges from a coticule and wouldn't consider a loss of sharpness to be a caveat of these stones. Some will disagree with me no doubt, but it's JMHO.

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I agree with you absolutely - I made a point of saying that for some they serve their purpose well! It wouldn't do for us to agree on everything, though - what a boring world that would be! I make a point of disagreeing with my wife at least twice a day - live life on the edge!

Regards,
Neil

Here's a tip for working with coticules - only start on it after you're done with the 4k. After the coticule, using a finisher is optional.

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Originally Posted by sheffieldlover

Here's a tip for working with coticules - only start on it after you're done with the 4k. After the coticule, using a finisher is optional.

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So you would recommend using the Coti as part of a multi-stone system?

What I was thinking of doing would be to set the bevel with my King 1k, finish w/the C12k (Maybe...), and use the Coti for everything in between. I would start with milky slurry & some medium-pressure circles, and work my way gradually to water & light x-strokes..Then from there I can decide whether I need a finishing stone of not. I doubt I'll use the C12k at first as I really want to see what a Coticule-finished edge feels like!!

Of course I can't do anything yet as it hasn't arrived!! Soon though...:)

If you haven't already found this Coticules 101 Blog post by zib I found it interesting.

I'm still working on my RAD and have no need to get deeper into HAD so no Coticules for me.

Jonathan

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Originally Posted by Datsots

If you haven't already found this Coticules 101 Blog post by zib I found it interesting.

I'm still working on my RAD and have no need to get deeper into HAD so no Coticules for me.

Jonathan

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Oh cool, I'll definitely check that out! I'm really encouraged by the results I got today with my new Boker on the Norton 4/8, so I'm hoping to carry these newly-acquired honing skills over to the Coticule.

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Originally Posted by jpcwon

So you would recommend using the Coti as part of a multi-stone system?

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Going along with what Neil said, first you need to mess with it and see where it fits in. It may be more a finisher or it may be an 'all around' stone. I also agree with what Ryan said about the shaving characteristics. I know, for a fact, that many of the pro barbers in Northern New Jersey , USA, honed their razors on coticules.

Once I began using them I found the edge to be sharp enough and smooth enough for a comfortable shave, but not so 'scary' sharp that I would have worried about cutting a customer if I was a pro barber. I do think that the ... I'll call it mild edge .... of the coticule was the major attraction for those guys.

Not to say that there aren't some coticules and some honers who may be able to get to 'scary' sharp, but I think that is the exception rather than the rule. At least the 20 or so I've had would indicate that to me. Fool with it and see where it fits in. You may really enjoy the edge you get from it.

Cool, thanks for the insight! I'm definitely more a fan of smooth over scary sharp (being a SR newb and all!), so hopefully it fits in well with what I expect out of a blade.

Plus, I just get a lot of joy out of honing, so I think using the Coti will only add to that!

I was able to ue my first coticule (a 40x150 standard) to take a new razor to shave ready. It took a bit of practice but worked fine in the end. I continue to keep that blade sharp with just that one stone.

The challenge of naturals is that one doesn't have the consistency of a synthetic. It's hard,as you attempt more razors, to develop a technique that works for everything. You may have success on one blade but not the next, then be left wondering what happened.

I had fun playing with natural stones, while learning to hone. When I wanted to learn consistency to be able to hone anything I stuck to the synthetics.

I have a real good chance at successfully honing any blade on synthetics. Maybe 85% or more on the first try. If I decide to break out a coticule with slurry those chances get a lot lower and the time spent increases.

Enjoy your purchase. You will have success if you practice. In the end the edge you get may not matter. What will matter is that you and your coti produced that edge.

Michael

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Originally Posted by mjsorkin

I was able to ue my first coticule (a 40x150 standard) to take a new razor to shave ready. It took a bit of practice but worked fine in the end. I continue to keep that blade sharp with just that one stone.

The challenge of naturals is that one doesn't have the consistency of a synthetic. It's hard,as you attempt more razors, to develop a technique that works for everything. You may have success on one blade but not the next, then be left wondering what happened.

I had fun playing with natural stones, while learning to hone. When I wanted to learn consistency to be able to hone anything I stuck to the synthetics.

I have a real good chance at successfully honing any blade on synthetics. Maybe 85% or more on the first try. If I decide to break out a coticule with slurry those chances get a lot lower and the time spent increases.

Enjoy your purchase. You will have success if you practice. In the end the edge you get may not matter. What will matter is that you and your coti produced that edge.

Michael

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I really appreciate the opinion! I'm learning that there are different ways to get a result in honing (synthetics, naturals, etc..) and I really want to be able to experience all the different means to "the end" (a smooth, sharp edge), so I'm excited to start my journey with the Coticule... :)