BigSpedur's challenge

Yesterday I received thebigspendur's challenge.
This razor is as dull as a butterknife. I could safely slide my thumbpad across the length of the blade (no pressure of course)
Other than that i has a nice feel to it, and it looks real nice. The lighting of my flash makes it look scuffed, but the blade is in good condition, and the handles are smooth.i

http://www.bdvd.be/images/spr/img_1511.jpg
http://www.bdvd.be/images/spr/img_1514.jpg

The edge looks very damaged. It might be that there is a slight warp to the blade, but I couldn't really see it when laid flat on the stone.
My first approach will be to tape the spine and hone it on a coarse stone (1000 or 2000. don't know exactly) to establish a new and even bevel.

The blade itself is wedge shaped and has a lot of meat to it, so I might be able to hide the slight warp in the blade itself.

I'll keep everyone posted on the progress.

And thanks to thebigspendur for graciously sending me the razor free of charge.

Will you be able to keep the engraving on the blade?
Even though it isn’t accurate at the moment.:w
Tony H

Good luck with the honing. I like the little tang on 'er.

X

Quote:

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Originally Posted by portal5

Will you be able to keep the engraving on the blade?
Even though it isn’t accurate at the moment.:w
Tony H

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I think so.
The spine is pretty thick, so the engraving is raised far enough that it should never touch the stone.

Ok. Whoever owned this razor before Nelson probably used it for splitting logs or slaughtering a bull.

This thing was dull. :eek:

So I started Xing on my industrial stone. Don't know the grit size. I suspect 1000 or 2000. Used a piece of coticule for raising a slurry.
After a couple of minutes I realized that this was going nowhere. This steel is hard, and the edge was rounded and uneven. The blade also has an ever so slight warp.

Forget technique, forget refinement. I pressed it on the stone with one sided, and rubbed back and forth for 50 laps. then I flipped it on its side, and scraped it back and forth for 50 laps.
I repeated this for 1.5 hour... :D

By that time (and with some intermediate local corrections) the bevel was even, and restored along the blade except for 0.5 cm of both the heel and the toe.

Then I used a modified X for about 20 minutes. Because of the warp, the regular X doesn't work because then the blade doesn't touch stone everywhere. I kept the blade at a 45 degree angle so that I could slide the entire edge over the stone. Near the end of the X I rotated the blade so that I ended perpendicular to the stone.

The edge is now sharp enough to smoothly shave dry arm hair without scraping the skin, except for the heel and toe. That is not quite there yet.

What with all the honing lately, my left arm starts to look funny, with all the bald patches. :roflmao

Anyhow, that's it for today. A small malt whisky and then off to bed. :w

I just honed on e of these up last week. Mine didn't start off as dull as this one sounds, but I had the same problem on the heel and toe. I had to come back here and re-read Scott's post about how to establish a smile and then i used the short stroke technique to specifically work the heel and toe at each grit size till I finished with exaggerated x's on my barbers hone. It shaves great! I love the point and curve of it.

Yea I had gotten that thing to the point where it shaved armhairs reasonably well but it wouldn't shave worth a damn. Then I experimented with a lansky diamond hone because it does have a double warp to it. That undid everything I had done previously. By that point it just wasn't worth the effort anymore. It is a very old and well worn razor. When I got it it wouldn't even cut butter.

Yesterday I managed to get the edge HHT sharp, but the heel and the toe would not get sharp.

I could not get them sharp because the blade is a bit narrower at those points, and the bevel would not touch the stone. There was little I could do about that, but then I realised that there is a solution: take away a bit of the spine.

So I started honing the heel and toe separately with a lot of pressure on the spine itself. Not on the blade.

Now I have 2 shiny bevels running all the way from heel to toe.
I will do some more Xing to make the spine surface that touches the sone a bit smoother.

Yesterday I spent another 1.5 hours on the hone. I wanted to have the edge flat on the hone in order to comfortably hone the heel and the toe.

Unfortunately -as you can see on the pictures- the spine is uneven due to previous abuse. So I started grinding the sping on the hone in order to make it flat.

It is now flat, and the bevel touche stone along the whole length, except for the very last couple of mm of the heel. Good enough for now.

One thing I learned yesterday: when grinding the spine, do not make lateral movements. always keep the blade at somewhere between 45 deg and perpendicular to the stone. otherwise the edge developed very bad burring.

I have cleaned up most of it, but not yet everything. Tonight I'll see if I can get it arm shaving again. from there on it should be painless to get it to shave. :rolleyes:

I took some pictures, but the are blurry. Will try to get better pictures tonight.

That's 5.5 hours and counting. Well, with my wife going to bed early (pregnant) it gives me something to do. :roflmao

7 hours and counting.

I have learned so much already. Especially how NOT to do things.

The edge was awfully burred. I spent yesterday evening trying to clear away most of the burrs. I could actually see them with the naked eye, so it was bad.

First some careful sharpening on a fine stone (2000 I think), and then 3/4 of an hour on the belgian blue.
From time to time I cut a couple of mm through a folded newspaper to remove loose burrs..
The burring is a lot less. Today I took it to work to put it under the microscope at 10*10 magnification. It looked OK to the naked eye.

:eek: the horror...
The edge is serrated like a hacksaw. The bevel is covered in deep scratches that run in all directions. It really made me nauseous, and for a moment I was tempted to give in.

But there is also good news: apart from the deeper scratches, the bevel looks nice and flat. This means that contact with the stone is good enough. The serrations are rounded, so the real burrs are gone.

Tonight I will take it to the blue again for 1 or 2 hours of careful, slow polishing.
That should hopefull make the edge smooth again.

Thanks for posting these updates. It's encouraging that even a very experienced honer can still spend frustrating hours on a blade... I'm enjoying your editorial comments, too.

Josh

8 hours and counting.

The day before Yesterday I only got in 1 hour of honing because my daughter had startled awake at 20:30 and panicked. It was 22:00 before she was ready to sleep.

Anyway, I spent an hour on the blue, using a little pressure and going slow. I concentrated on maintaining edge contact with the stone through slight rolling.
The burring I saw yesterday is a lot less, and the deep scratches are now either gone or shallow scratches.

A norton 4K would probably have done it quicker, but apart from coarse stones I only have blue and yellow belgian.

I had to lap the blue 2 times in between because the bevel was not even in the beginning.

Yesterday I took some pictures with an imaging microscope at work.

Heel
http://www.bdvd.be/images/spr/heel.jpg

Middle
http://www.bdvd.be/images/spr/middle.jpg

Toe
http://www.bdvd.be/images/spr/toe.jpg

If you think this looks bad, believe me: the day before it was a lot worse.

9.5 hours and counting.

Yesterday I set out to get rid of the burring.
Since this is a honing experiment anyway, I decided to try something.
When I hone craft tools, I finish on a piece of yellow coticule. Each time I do that, I notice that the slurry becomes grey if the edge was not totally smooth.

Since this razor was also burred, I decided to leave the blue for now and go to the yellow. Most people only use it as a finishing stone, but I am glad I tried.

I used medium pressure, and boy what a sight. The places that had burrs left grey smears on the stone. After 10 minutes the slurry was completely black, so I rinsed it off and started with a clean stone.

After an hour, the bevel was gleaming from heel to toe, with only a couple of tiny burrs left. They are almost too small to see them, but under strong light I can see the reflections.

The feel on the stone is different now. The razor slides without scraping on the stone, and I can feel no burrs when cleaning it with cloth. It is back to popping arm hairs.

By now my left arm is starting to look weird.:D There are 8 bald spots on my forearm. I'll have to try something else. I have tried leg hair, but that is much coarser and not cut so easily. Maybe it'll work if the razor is a bit sharper.

What I learned yesterday: the yellow is not only an excellent finishing stone, but also very good at removing debris and burrs despite the very fine garnet grits. I suspect this is because the amount of garnets in the slurry is ten times higher than with the blue.

I hope to remove the last of the fuzz today or tomorrow. Today I am working at my company, so no microscope. That'll have to work until tuesday when I an with my client again.

those are some great pictures, its much easier to see those than what the $10 radioshack microscope view gives you

now if we all had access to a nice imaging microscope ...

But where to buy a good microscope which is not a toy, but also doesn't cost a fortune. There is one place here or another here, but they are both serious money:cry:

I do really want to get something.

John

Check out Edmunds scientifics on the web they have a variety of magnifiers and scopes at various prices.

Well now you know why I sent that razor to Bruno. Don't all forget that when I got the razor off Eboy it was a rusty corroded mess I probably initially spent about 5 hours just cleaning it up and polishing the scales to where it is. Then I spent about 4 hours honing until I realized it was warped and nothing would work. Then I experimented with a diamond hone set thinking a narrow hone might work but I couldn't maintain the proper angle and the diamond started to chew up the edge. So if Bruno gets that thing shaving he deserves the Hone-man of the year award.

What you're seeing on the edge may be microchipping caused by either rotten steel or excessively hard brittle steel. I've got a Joseph Elliot frameback (from Ivo) and a Wacker with this problem (the Elliot had rotten steel, the Wacker is just too hard and brittle). Both of them responded well to a Tam O'Shanter hone, which is a very slow waterstone that puts a very fine and gentle polish on a blade without much risk of microchipping.

(Edit: Is the razor you're working on also a Joseph Elliot frameback? I wonder if they had problems during that time period?)

It's a Joseph Rogers & sons frameback, cutlers to their majesties, 6 Norfolk road, Sheffield.

In this case I am fairly confident the chipping happend when I ground the frameback against a very rough stone to smooth it. It had very uneven hone wear. The edge touched the stone as well.
In those pictures, the damage is already partly undone. at first I could see the chipping with a naked eye.

I discovered that I ground the spine the wrong way. It is not dramatic, but honing would be easier if I had put some more thought into it. Next time I need to do that I will use a small belt sander instead of a stone.

I just skimmed through this post. Looks like you guys are going through a LOT of effort. Have you tried simply using narrower hones? I've honed a couple of this style this past week, one in horrible condition. I taped the spine and started on the 2" wide 1000 grit working the smile till I got the bevel I wanted then went to the higher grit stones and they honed right up. the smaller width on the hone seems to work better for me when things are really screwed up. 3 inch wide hones seem to me to be harder to work out unevenness on blades. In a complete shave it shaved like a champ. Maybe this one wasn't as bad as yours. I don't know.

Glen F

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Originally Posted by FUD

I just skimmed through this post. Looks like you guys are going through a LOT of effort. Have you tried simply using narrower hones? I've honed a couple of this style this past week, one in horrible condition. I taped the spine and started on the 2" wide 1000 grit working the smile till I got the bevel I wanted then went to the higher grit stones and they honed right up. the smaller width on the hone seems to work better for me when things are really screwed up. 3 inch wide hones seem to me to be harder to work out unevenness on blades. In a complete shave it shaved like a champ. Maybe this one wasn't as bad as yours. I don't know.

Glen F

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I used a 2" rough stone and now a 1,5" blue and yellow.
And yes, this razor was one messed up SOB. :)

You are right though, if a razor has a slight warp, a narrow stone maintains better contact than a wide stone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bwknight

those are some great pictures, its much easier to see those than what the $10 radioshack microscope view gives you

now if we all had access to a nice imaging microscope ...

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Smithsonian sells a nice imaging scope that goes to 220x and plugs directly into the pc via usp with 640X480 rez. you can get it at walmart.com for 70 bucks or so and otherplaces for like 88 or so. I think the light source is bottomside so you might have to jerry rig a decent topside light.

14 hours and counting.

I spent a lot of time on the yellow, de-nickifying the edge.
The best results were achieved by using medium pressure, and moving back and forth 5 times on the length of the stone, then flip the razor and do it again.
repeat this for hours...
But I have to say that the results are stunning. the nicks are gone, as are virtually all weird sunlight reflections.

It was very slow, but I have no in-between stone at the moment, and I did not want to mess up again.
It was fairly easy to judge progress by inspecting the color of the slurry.

the last hour I spent X ind normally, evening out the bevel to get it nice and polished evenly.

HHT still fails, but if I whack a hair on the edge, sometimes it will snap.

I took some new pictures:

toe
http://www.bdvd.be/images/spr/fb1/toe.jpg

between toe and middle
http://www.bdvd.be/images/spr/fb1/toe-middle.jpg

middle
http://www.bdvd.be/images/spr/fb1/middle.jpg

between middle and heel
http://www.bdvd.be/images/spr/fb1/middle-heel.jpg

heel
http://www.bdvd.be/images/spr/fb1/heel.jpg

This was done with a magnification of ~120.

I have also put it under a quality microscope and with a 400x magnification there is still a lot of crud hanging on the edge, but I suspect this has to do with the fact that I have not stropped yet or used a pasted paddle.

Tomorrow I will backhone a couple of times on the blue, and then do a full pyramid. hopefully I will be able to do a successful testshave then.

Well I'm just sitting here watching the hours role by and laughing my butt off. Remember I had gotten to a point where it was arm hair shaving on part of the razor pretty good but wouldn't shave worth a damn. Honestly, I hope your successful. After all the time your putting in you deserve success. Its the mother of all project razors.

Well the edge is clean, and there is no reason why it shouldn't get there at this point. 1 or 2 pyramids, stropping on paste and then on leather should get it to at least the same point as my current straight.

The fact that the blade is curved like a katana means that I have to roll it carefully, but with enough patience, that should not be too hard.

I am going to try to tape the spine. Not that it is worth protecting anymore :roflmao but that should increase the honing angle slightly so that I have a fraction better contact between the edge and the stone.

A lot will depend on what happens tonight. Believe me, I am not going to spend 10 more hours on this baby if it is going nowhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruno

I am going to try to tape the spine. Not that it is worth protecting anymore :roflmao but that should increase the honing angle slightly so that I have a fraction better contact between the edge and the stone.

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It could also increase the stress on the edge enough to chip it again...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mparker762

It could also increase the stress on the edge enough to chip it again...

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:cry: :cry: :cry:

But you are right of course.
I was just about to start honing.

Maybe a better idea would be to first try the pyramid without taping and see how that goes, and only tape when it is going nowhere.

14,5 hours.

:y :y :y

I have just done a testshave. With and against the grain.
This was just as good as with my normal me-honed straight.

I can feel that there is still a little more to get out of this razor, but at this point I am satisfied with the result.
This thing is half an inch longer than my other knife. this one is 3,5 or possibly even a smidgen longer. I have to be careful not to poke in my ear or my jugular veins with the toe.

What I absolutely LOVE about this razor is the curve of the blade. it is curved like a japanese katana, and the feel on my cheeks it fabulous. It also has no problem at all with the curvings between my throat and my jugular veins. The curve of the blade sails smoothly through that area. My 'straight' straight has to do that area in several difficult passes, but not this one.

Ok... By now I think my enthousiasm has permeated into this post.

This one is definitely a keeper. The coming week I will do some stropping on the pasted strop to improve the edge a bit, but other than that it doesn't need much more. I will not be updating this thread for much longer, since I have shown that this razor is hone-able.

The challenge was met, and I am the victor. I have really learned a lot, and I would like to publically thank Nelson for giving me this opportunity.

I will probably also make a set of custom scales for this one because it is worth it.

Tata...

:y :y :y

WTG Bruno! :tu Now you can smash it with a big sledgehammer :w

Congratulations, I bow to the honemeister.

Enjoy it, you've certainly earned it.