Norton 4K makes it more dull than 1K? So confused...

This is how I was honing.....

Spine taped.
Naniwa 1K.
Running the razor perpendicular to the whetstone (no leading or trailing).
First off use some pressure on the strokes (I did a lot maybe 100+ strokes each side on the 1K).
Once I get a completely even coverage all the way across the bevel I do 15-20 light strokes.

At this point the razor is capable of shaving some (not all) arm hairs.
Looking through 15x loupe, I see a very minimally jagged edge, hardly enough to notice.
The grain of the hone is consistent all the way across the bevel.

So I move on to Norton 4k
Create a little slurry (I'm not sure if this is an acceptable slurry or not) by flattening the whetstone with a 220 diamond hone, and dliute it with water.
2 Strokes each side with a huge trail (ran the razor way off perpendicular) to create a noticeable difference in the honing grain angle.
Inspect with loupe, and the new angled grain is consistent all the way across both sides of the bevel.

Then I continue honing (I didn't remove spine tape), doing 30-40 perpendicular strokes with less pressure than the first strokes on the 1K, but still not the lightest I could go.

Here's the weird part; I now take a look with my 15x loupe, and the grain is still consistent on both sides. The edge looks even better, with that barely noticeable jaggedness completely gone, and my eye can't tell that it's not a completely straight edge. But then I try shaving my arm hair with it.....and ABSOLUTELY NO hairs pop/shave off!!!

The razor just completely glides all the way over any hair it touches, and instead I actually notice it's scraping all the dead skin off my arm and leaving the hairs untouched. Weirdest thing I've ever seen with my razor! I'm at a higher grit, it has been going good all along, and it looks much better at this stage, but performs much worse!

Anybody have an idea of what the heck's going on?

Edit: I can literally run the razor the whole way down my arm, not pop a single hair, and have a bevel full of dead skin at the end.

Edit: One thing I have always noticed is that my Norton 4K has always had a very coarse feel to it when honing and to the touch. As opposed to my Norton 8k, Naniwa 1K and 12k, all of which feel very glassy/silky/smooth to the touch and when honing. I remember reading about there something being wrong with the 4K, and that if you buy a new one it's best to lap 1/8 of an inch or so off of it to get to the good part. I did procede to lap a lot of the hone off, maybe not a full 1/8, I'm not sure. Maybe that's got something to do with my problems.

This has actually happened to me before while honing. What type of razor are you honing? This usually happens to me if I'm using the wrong angle with a wedge while honing. This has also happened to me while honing on older razors near the end of their life span. I've been trying to dial in a wade and butcher wedge and this is happening to me as well. I haven't tried it yet but I suspect the way to fix this problem is to use more tape and increase the angle of honing. I'd like to see some expert advice on this as well its an interesting problem. Wish I could help more.

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Originally Posted by Steelstubble

This has actually happened to me before while honing. What type of razor are you honing? This usually happens to me if I'm using the wrong angle with a wedge while honing. This has also happened to me while honing on older razors near the end of their life span. I've been trying to dial in a wade and butcher wedge and this is happening to me as well. I haven't tried it yet but I suspect the way to fix this problem is to use more tape and increase the angle of honing. I'd like to see some expert advice on this as well its an interesting problem. Wish I could help more.

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I'm using a Dovo "Best Quality" carbon steel razor. It isn't old. Pretty sure I got it brand new sometime in late 2011. I did stain it just a week or so ago by using it to cut strawberries lol. The razor was the closest thing to me and a few of my strawberries had rotten patches that I wanted to lop off. I didn't immediately clean it other than wiping it dry, so that is probably what stained it. I don't know how much of an affect that would have on the razor's quality. It's a barely noticeable stain, but I guess it can't really be good for it.

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Originally Posted by weldor

This is how I was honing.....

Spine taped.
Naniwa 1K.
Running the razor perpendicular to the whetstone (no leading or trailing).
First off use some pressure on the strokes (I did a lot maybe 100+ strokes each side on the 1K).
Once I get a completely even coverage all the way across the bevel I do 15-20 light strokes.

At this point the razor is capable of shaving some (not all) arm hairs.
Looking through 15x loupe, I see a very minimally jagged edge, hardly enough to notice.
The grain of the hone is consistent all the way across the bevel.

So I move on to Norton 4k
Create a little slurry (I'm not sure if this is an acceptable slurry or not) by flattening the whetstone with a 220 diamond hone, and dliute it with water.
2 Strokes each side with a huge trail (ran the razor way off perpendicular) to create a noticeable difference in the honing grain angle.
Inspect with loupe, and the new angled grain is consistent all the way across both sides of the bevel.

Then I continue honing (I didn't remove spine tape), doing 30-40 perpendicular strokes with less pressure than the first strokes on the 1K, but still not the lightest I could go.

Here's the weird part; I now take a look with my 15x loupe, and the grain is still consistent on both sides. The edge looks even better, with that barely noticeable jaggedness completely gone, and my eye can't tell that it's not a completely straight edge. But then I try shaving my arm hair with it.....and ABSOLUTELY NO hairs pop/shave off!!!

The razor just completely glides all the way over any hair it touches, and instead I actually notice it's scraping all the dead skin off my arm and leaving the hairs untouched. Weirdest thing I've ever seen with my razor! I'm at a higher grit, it has been going good all along, and it looks much better at this stage, but performs much worse!

Anybody have an idea of what the heck's going on?

Edit: I can literally run the razor the whole way down my arm, not pop a single hair, and have a bevel full of dead skin at the end.

Edit: One thing I have always noticed is that my Norton 4K has always had a very coarse feel to it when honing and to the touch. As opposed to my Norton 8k, Naniwa 1K and 12k, all of which feel very glassy/silky/smooth to the touch and when honing. I remember reading about there something being wrong with the 4K, and that if you buy a new one it's best to lap 1/8 of an inch or so off of it to get to the good part. I did procede to lap a lot of the hone off, maybe not a full 1/8, I'm not sure. Maybe that's got something to do with my problems.

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A couple things. First, I have found the Norton 4k to be very coarse and I’m not a fan of it. I’m currently using it but considering a Naniwai option. But you need to ensure that its been lapped really well or it will rip the hell out the edge of your blade. Second, after obtaining a bevel on your 1k, working up a slurry on the 4k always takes me backward. I don’t do it. After the 1k, the only slurry my razor may see will be on a natural finishing stone. The 4k, 8k, and 12k will be on water only. You might try NOT working up that slurry and just working on water. You’ll see plenty evidence of the 4k handiwork on the hone as you go. I don’t think you need that slurry at all.

I'm also interested in replies to this post. For about a year I had tried to get edges going with my norton 4k. I can get a good bevel with the naniwa 1k and then the norton 4k dulls it very quickly. I've lapped it down A LOT because of the supposed Mexican made nortons needing it. I got a Naniwa 3k and it's solved my problems. Maybe my technique doesn't agree with the norton or maybe it's just a POS :shrug:

The 8k side and I get along great.

There are just so many errors being made here it almost hurts my eyes to read this thread...

Seriously ????

I used my razor to cut strawberries
I am going straight up and down the hone
I get a jagged edge and then move on
I use pressure for 100 strokes


Please stop, go do some reading and watching and quit abusing the razor, Search the Term JaNorton step away from the hones and start from square one after reading and watching in that thread...


ps: Literally 1000's of razors have been honed on the Norton 4k the American ones the Italian ones and the Mexican ones, with slurry, without slurry... Methinks perhaps it is the hands behind the steel that have the issue, and not the hone in front :p

pps: a properly set 1k bevel can shave your face

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Originally Posted by OCDshaver

A couple things. First, I have found the Norton 4k to be very coarse and I’m not a fan of it. I’m currently using it but considering a Naniwai option. But you need to ensure that its been lapped really well or it will rip the hell out the edge of your blade. Second, after obtaining a bevel on your 1k, working up a slurry on the 4k always takes me backward. I don’t do it. After the 1k, the only slurry my razor may see will be on a natural finishing stone. The 4k, 8k, and 12k will be on water only. You might try NOT working up that slurry and just working on water. You’ll see plenty evidence of the 4k handiwork on the hone as you go. I don’t think you need that slurry at all.

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I also intuitively felt that slurry might be a bad thing when I was deciding whether or not I should. I recently watched a video of someone (seemingly reputable) honing and they went from a 1K to a norton 4K with slurry. However they used a 6K pocket whetstone to create the slurry whereas I just lapped my 4K with a 220 DMT.

I have since ran 40+ strokes after washing off all the slurry, using light pressure, and although it may have improved slightly (it now pops 1 single hair instead of zero), it still was definitely shaving better off the 1K. I guess this means the damage is already done and I'm going to have to step back down to the 1k?

Is it ever possibly the case that the razor will get worse before it gets better? I mean the razor edge LOOKS less jagged through my 15x loupe off the 4K than off the 1K.
Or does the fact that it just can't shave worth crap always trump any other indicator you have?

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I used my razor to cut strawberries

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I know the strawberries thing was stupid. Sometimes I do stupid things what can I say =P

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I am going straight up and down the hone

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My hones are wide enough to compliment the whole length of the razor, and I lapped both my stones before honing. Maybe I'm wrong but I just don't see how not using the "x-pattern" is wrong. I've always had a bone to pick with regards to the x-stroke, and I've never inquired. That problem is this:

On a single stroke, I start with the whole length of the blade on the hone. I can't start with the tip/point of the razor off of the hone because that means the heel/stabilizer will be sitting on the hone which will force it to not sit flat on the hone. As soon as I start the x-stroke, I guide the heel of the razor off of the hone, and progressively more and more of the bevel leaves contact with the hone until the end of the stroke at which point there is about 1/3 of the bevel not in contact with the hone. So 2/3 of the bevel is on the hone for the ENITRE stroke, whereas the other 1/3 isn't due to the nature of the x-stroke.

I can't imagine how it can be good practice to hone 2/3 of the bevel more then the other 1/3.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I get a jagged edge and then move on

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I only used the word "jagged" for lack of a better term. Looking through my 15x loupe, it was very very hard to notice any deviation from a completely straight edge, but if I looked hard enough and got the light perfectly reflecting off the bevel, I could see very slight imperfections in the edge in certain spots. Whether or not that is worthy of moving on to a 4K, I don't know.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I use pressure for 100 strokes

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I don't feel like I was using too much pressure with the 1K strokes. The bevel was in bad shape because I was struggling and getting frustrated and just probably making it worse several attempts before this one. But I kept checking after every 10 or 20 strokes to see if the bevel was improving or not, and from what I saw, it was. I had a lot of 220 grit grains in the bevel because I had to get a big nick out, and during those 100 strokes I saw those grains slowly be replaced by nice consistent 1K grains, to the point where eventually it looked flat and consistent all the way along the bevel.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

pps: a properly set 1k bevel can shave your face

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I actually was pretty surprised how it was shaving arm/legs hairs when I finished off the 1K. However I wouldn't have gotten a nice shave with it the way it was.

I agree with gssixgun. There are some incorrect assumptions being made by the op.

I would switch to circles on 1k then do x strokes. Plenty of videos show this including from gssixgun. When done the edge should be able to shave an area of your arm without any effort

Try marking the bevel with a marker and see if you can get all the marker with 1 x stroke.

Then you can do the circles again on 4k. First higher pressure then low. I don't use slurry. The stone is quite abrasive but leaves a very fine edge.

If you are dulling the razor on 4k then my guess is that the bevel wasnt done on 1k to begin with. After 4k the razor should be super sharp, easily cutting any arm hair.

Michael

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At this point the razor is capable of shaving some (not all) arm hairs

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Your bevel isn't set.

A couple of things.

1. Glen knows a *lot* about honing. Besides that, he genuinely cares about people learning how to do it for no other reason than he wants people to be self-sufficient and enjoy their shaves. Heed his words - you won't regret it if you do;

2. 100 pressure strokes on a 1K hone, no matter what the hone, IMO and IME will give you a wire edge. I would hazard that what is happening is that the edge is breaking off in the norton 4K slurry;

3. Slurry on the 4K is not necessary and could also be contributing to the edge issue.

Good luck and keep us posted!

James.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

2. 100 pressure strokes on a 1K hone, no matter what the hone, IMO and IME will give you a wire edge. I would hazard that what is happening is that the edge is breaking off in the norton 4K slurry

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I think you are right about that. I recall seeing a very tiny hint of light on the edge of the razor, and the first few strokes on the 4K felt very weird like the razor was running over bumps on the hone. I brushed both indicators off as probably insignificant and kept on honing.

Every indicator is significant. If something looks or feels different than normal - it's because it's different than normal.

See if you can get those chips out of your edge at the 1k level. A 1k edge viewed at 15x should look really clean.