Honing on glass

I spilled the beans in another thread, so I'm going to say more here.

I started one day thinking about finer and finer honing, chrome oxide, diamonds, etc., and remembered those old hones that double-edge people used to swear by in the days of carbon steel blades: concave glass and drinking glasses. I think we've all read the stories about keeping a DE carbon blade going for months by honing (burnishing? stropping?) in a drinking glass, so I started wondering how it would work on a carbon steel straight. I took a freshly honed straight (12k Naniwa, then chrome) that hadn't been stropped and a piece of glass and treated the glass just like an infinite-grit hone: some water, then some gentle rubbing as with a normal hone, followed up by more rubbing on the dry glass.

I thought the difference was pretty amazing. I think what it was doing was a harsher version of what the strop does: aligning, and perhaps burnishing, the edge, not cutting on it, and it seems to do an amazing job of that. My straight worked a lot better, and when I tried it on my violin making knives, which I have more experience with, the improvement was substantial. I posted it on a violin board, and to some friends, and they're reporting back that it works great on their knives. While I felt like my straights were just a bit short of a fresh DE blade, now they've approached that a lot closer, and I really like the way they're working.

When you think about it, if it worked well on carbon DE blades, there's no reason it wouldn't work well on straights.

Razor maker extradonaire Robert Williams began using diamond spray on a spyderco ultrafine and got great results. Your experiment brings that to mind. I would probably try some chrom-ox or diamond spray on the glass just to see if it gilds the lilly.

My Grandad said they used to run a razor blade around the inside of a glass during the war to put an edge on it as they didnt get to replace them very often

I started this line of thought by using chrome on glass, as a matter of fact, on my first razor. I had the chrome in my violin shop, but no strop. So I used glass as a backing for the chrome, and that's still what I do. I do the bare glass after the chrome, however, and it's an improvement.

There are a few threads on here about trying Glass Hones and Strops, if you use the Advanced search function you should be able to find them , most started from the exact same thought process as you had.. Somebody will post a question about the old DE sharpeners being glass, and then somebody tries it on a SR...

Some people swear by using CBN and other Sub-Micron polishing agents on Stones, Ceramics and Glass plate

I did quite a few searches here and via google and didn't find much, except regarding DE blades. Maybe you can point me to something.

The last guy I remember messing with it went by "Gibbs" you might start by searching his old posts, if you hit the search function then go to the "Advanced Search Function" you will find a ton of info hiding in the dusty archives of SRP :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mdarnton

I started this line of thought by using chrome on glass, as a matter of fact, on my first razor. I had the chrome in my violin shop, but no strop. So I used glass as a backing for the chrome, and that's still what I do. I do the bare glass after the chrome, however, and it's an improvement.

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I have tinkered with this as well.

Fine near micron grit on glass works quite well. Rinse the glass to
finish the process. One source of grit is slurry from another hone.
Sprays of diamond or CBN work fine

The problem I found is that to some extent it is possible for me
to get the razor too sharp for a comfortable shave. Some call the
too sharp edge a harsh shave but it will often calm down after a shave or
two.

Another problem is the progression of grit as you approach
the need for honing on glass. Like all other hones the
progression has no short cuts. Near micron bits are gosh
awful fine and demand the edge be ready for a grit
that fine.

Loose grit and slurry works wonders. Large and small stone is often sliced with
a wire saw where the "blade" has no grit but grit is carried by
the wire. Diamond/ gem cutters use oak and copper metal that grabs the suspended
grit (slurry of diamond in oil) and drags the grit across the gem.

I haven't tried that, but I do know from experience that you can get a serviceable, if not ultra-fine, edge on a knife (NOT a razor, obviously!) by honing on the bottom, unglazed rim of a coffee mug. I've got one mug in particular that works great for this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

Loose grit and slurry works wonders. Large and small stone is often sliced with
a wire saw where the "blade" has no grit but grit is carried by
the wire. Diamond/ gem cutters use oak and copper metal that grabs the suspended
grit (slurry of diamond in oil) and drags the grit across the gem.

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I've only read that in "De diversis artibus" by Theophilus Presbyter written in 1100, have you got some more up to date info on it?

Would doing this take the place of a leather strop?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RARamirez

Would doing this take the place of a leather strop?

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IMO, there is no replacement for the leather to align the edge. If men and barbers did it before every shave so many years ago, then that's good enough for me :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RARamirez

Would doing this take the place of a leather strop?

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I don't think so.

Lillicrap hones have been around for a while to resharpen DE blades. I don't think straights have ever been honed on glass on a large scale.

So kind of on the line of this thread... I found this... Would this be something to use my razor on?? Attachment 123435 Attachment 123436

Try it and see. I don't think it's going to hurt anything.

When I was a machinist we called it Lapping, here is this forum they use the term different. When I was a Mechanic withe Diesel engines the old hydraulic injectors like on the Detroit Diesel engines the cones and the tip of the injector had to be Lapped. We would lay out a big glass sheet on a flate surface sometimes we would use a layout block, made of granite. I would use a perscibed medium that felt like a paste and work out any scratches on what we called matted surfaces. When I was a machinist we would use a machine. Look up Lapping on Wekipedia.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Murmle

So kind of on the line of this thread... I found this... Would this be something to use my razor on?? Attachment 123435 Attachment 123436

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Sure, spray it with 1 micron abrasive or 0.5 micron abrasive and hone away.
Diamond or Cubic Boron Nitride. It does not take much. As far as grit goes because of the solid glass
almost double the micron size before converting to a grit number to compare to a hone. Also twice as fast.

Use a light touch and let a glass slurry build up before giving up on the charge.

I had trouble finding value in the ceramic DMT ultra fine hone until I began giving it a gentle tune up
with 0.5 CBN.

Clean with water, glass will not act as an abrasive on hard razor steel but will straighten and
improve an edge.

You may find that a 2 micron, 1 micron, 0.5 micron spray sequence and a good wash with clear
water will work for some razors.

The cost of these sprays is such that hones are a better long term purchase. Sprays can also
be used on a leather or canvas/fabric strop. 0.5 micron spray on a strop or canvas does not hurt
and for me helps smooth the shave. Abrasive spray reduces the draw on leather for me which can
be a negative if it goes too far. A little goes a long way.

I mention this because glass with CBN could result in a harsh shave that a lightly pasted/sprayed
strop can calm. Never spray your better strop with anything coarser than 0.5 or 0.25 micron and then only
a little.

Try it on a second razor... and let us know.

So, when I started shaving I did what my grandfather did.. He honed on a old razor hone and then finished on a glass bottle. I did it this way until I joined this site and found Shaptons and coticules. I find that coticules work much beter. The bottle worked at the time, but learning the newer techniques definitely improved my shaves. To each their own though.. It is definitely cheaper to go with a bottle.

Barbers' manual ; and, Text book on taxidermy
by T.J. McConnaughay.
You can find this text at the openlibrary.org.

He gives detailed instructions on making and using glass hones on page 30.
I made one with double strength glass and used an escher for slurry.
Very nice finished edge.

Taxidermy and barbering... amazing read.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wintchase

So, when I started shaving I did what my grandfather did.. He honed on a old razor hone and then finished on a glass bottle. I did it this way until I joined this site and found Shaptons and coticules. I find that coticules work much beter. The bottle worked at the time, but learning the newer techniques definitely improved my shaves. To each their own though.. It is definitely cheaper to go with a bottle.

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When all hones fails, it's time to hit the bottle!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mdarnton

I spilled the beans in another thread, so I'm going to say more here.

I started one day thinking about finer and finer honing, chrome oxide, diamonds, etc., and remembered those old hones that double-edge people used to swear by in the days of carbon steel blades: concave glass and drinking glasses. I think we've all read the stories about keeping a DE carbon blade going for months by honing (burnishing? stropping?) in a drinking glass, so I started wondering how it would work on a carbon steel straight. I took a freshly honed straight (12k Naniwa, then chrome) that hadn't been stropped and a piece of glass and treated the glass just like an infinite-grit hone: some water, then some gentle rubbing as with a normal hone, followed up by more rubbing on the dry glass.

I thought the difference was pretty amazing. I think what it was doing was a harsher version of what the strop does: aligning, and perhaps burnishing, the edge, not cutting on it, and it seems to do an amazing job of that. My straight worked a lot better, and when I tried it on my violin making knives, which I have more experience with, the improvement was substantial. I posted it on a violin board, and to some friends, and they're reporting back that it works great on their knives. While I felt like my straights were just a bit short of a fresh DE blade, now they've approached that a lot closer, and I really like the way they're working.

When you think about it, if it worked well on carbon DE blades, there's no reason it wouldn't work well on straights.

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It has been done before, quite a number of years ago, by guys on this forum. Don't ask me for links - haven't the time to look for them, but it was well documented at the time. One guy used the rounded edge of cars side window, if I recall correctly, and some posted photos of flat slabs of glass that were used as hones and commericailly available many, many years ago.

One of the 'factory made' glass razor hones had an etched surface - to hold extra-fine abrasive, I suppose, and the guy who posted the pictures of it posted the instruction sheet, with an offer to return the hone to the factory to acid-etch the surface again should it get worn. Come to think of it, it might even have been me posting the instruction sheet - as I said, it was quite a few years ago.

You can tell how well it caught on by the avalanche of glass hones on the market.... :)

Regards,
Neil

I did some research on glass and discovered that it's just a bit harder than most razors would be. That would make the ground edge of a window, or a piece of ground or etched glass a type of hone all on its own, with an effective grit depending on the type of texture. I'm referring more to the polishing/burnishing effect of a smooth piece of glass, which I found to be steps up from chromium oxide on glass.

I'm still a bit perplexed by the fact that every surface I've honed on--two commercial strops, a newspaper, several random leather straps and belts---leaves scratches on a microscopic level, slowly undoing the polishing effect of higher grit things. But given what barbers used to hone on compared with now, I've pretty much decided that most of the modern honing fascination probably has more to do with spending money on stuff like fancy stones. That would certainly mimic what goes on in my own field.

I would imagine that most novaculite-type natural hones like translucent arkansas have just that effect - and have been used for many, many years too. Many of us have - or have used - one, in one or other of its incarnations.

Regards,
Neil

Glass hone small article from barbers manual. Ended up never trying this set-up as i found other threads with average results.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...ass-hones.html