Beginning to get why honemeisters charge extra for wedges...

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Originally Posted by straightrazorheaven

Just to add to what Neil said ... how many of you have bought a vintage hone that didn't need lapping?
I think hone abuse was probably partly to blame for this too. The fact that people either didn't know how to keep hones flat,
or just didn't care would be something that would severely impinge on their performance.

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Lost count of how many Carl!

At first I put it down to the extreme hardness of hones like LIs, Arkies, CFs and the like - its discouraging enough having to remove a mm or two, but I have found it with even greater regularity with coticules, which are much easier to lap.

Strangely enough, I have had a fair number of old natural BBW/Coti combination hones where the BBW side has been dished to such an extent that it has gone right into the yellow layer - really extreme dishing!

I have read posts by contemporary users of jnats, though, who advise that they don't bother lapping. Seems like the one stone with a variety of rubbers was used so that the slight dishing was not a problem for them.

Regards,
Neil

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Originally Posted by straightrazorheaven

Just to add to what Neil said ... how many of you have bought a vintage hone that didn't need lapping?
I think hone abuse was probably partly to blame for this too. The fact that people either didn't know how to keep hones flat,
or just didn't care would be something that would severely impinge on their performance.

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Jean-Jacques Perret book from 1771 "L'Art du Coutelier" clearly mentions that the stone needs to be flat, but lapping a stone in those days was a totally different task then today for sure.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ds-1771-a.html

I believed pressure would be another big factor for hone wear on these types of razors, Perret book doesnt mention anything on pressure, and if i recall reading many barbers manual the part on honing does mention pressure but most of these manual are around 1900.In those days any tools with an edge that needed sharpening was probably done by the owner and many of the common tools required pressure for sharpening.

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Originally Posted by pinklather

I had a heavy sheffield take me 7 hrs to set a bevel.

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Being pedantic or is it semantic , was that 7 hours of bevel setting or does that include all the re-profiling & chip removal ? :)

Establishing correct geometry on these old beasts is really the challenge. I would think bevel setting time on the 1k was minimal after the heavy lifting on the DMT C.

On the other hand,If you have a new Blade with perfect Geometry and a bevel that is pretty well set,How long do's it take you to make said razor shave ready?

I have had a few untouched oldies which come to mind. Some which had light or no evidence of hone wear, or major edge issues, They honed up much easier than a new Dovo and shaved like the dickens. A Greaves or two, Wades and Butchers, Elliotts, Pettys, Shaws, Crookes, Old quality Solingens. All with little or no wear. If it is lightly or untouched antique, it seems to go easy and nice!
Sort of what it would be like to have one new back in the day! :D

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

On the other hand,If you have a new Blade with perfect Geometry and a bevel that is pretty well set,How long do's it take you to make said razor shave ready?

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That's a bit like asking how high is up . :)
Next time I do a single razor I'll time myself but at a WAG....
A 66HRC Iwasaki , as long as it takes.
A new Dovo with no issues could take me 15 mins from 5k to end of stropping. I spent some excess time on one once setting the bevel with my 8k thinking it was my 2k. They're both green. :gaah:

This of course does not include shave tests, tweaks, packing, taking microscope pics for the owner,emails & travel to the P.O. ;)

I also agree with Tom. A minty wedge with good geometry, a rare & almost mythical beast, is as easy or easier than a new razor.

I can hone a brand new Dovo in under 2 minutes.

Wouldn't wanna shave with it though....

:p

James.

I can eat 50 eggs. ;)

In all honesty, it is my belief that the sooner you can get away from thoughts about "how long" and concentrate more on "how far" I think the happier and more effective you will be as a honer.

Of course, the pros who do many razors each day need to husband their time, but for the casual honer I'd suggest forgetting about speed records. It's not really helpful.

James.

My razors tell me when they are done, not the other way around.

I don't watch the clock or count laps until I am working with one that I am intimately familiar with and then I only count laps.

I have a a few that come out from the work pile and go back to it, they will make the grade at some point, but it is up to them not me when that happens.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

I can eat 50 eggs. ;)

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Can NOT! :p

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Originally Posted by pfries

I have a a few that come out from the work pile and go back to it, they will make the grade at some point, but it is up to them not me when that happens.

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A lot of wedges in that pile ? ;)

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Can NOT! :p

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Fish eggs?

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Fish eggs?

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I am thinking the eggs have expired.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

A lot of wedges in that pile ? ;)

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More than 1 or 2.... :p

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

In all honesty, it is my belief that the sooner you can get away from thoughts about "how long" and concentrate more on "how far" I think the happier and more effective you will be as a honer.

Of course, the pros who do many razors each day need to husband their time, but for the casual honer I'd suggest forgetting about speed records. It's not really helpful.

James.

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This is excellent advice. My mother (YES MOTHER) gave me this advice before I started honing professionally.
Had she not told me over and over again to take my time I wouldn't have the understanding I do now.
Time isn't a useful measurement of success, the razor is though.
After you master your skills, and are getting repeatable results over and over again, then you can start to look at the time it takes, and how to refine your honing progression/technique to get quicker.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

I can eat 50 eggs. ;)

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Nobody, but NOBODY can eat fifty eggs!

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Originally Posted by maddafinga

Nobody, but NOBODY can eat fifty eggs!

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Eating them wouldn't be a problem for me. Keeping them down, now that's another story.

Newman should add "50 egg" mayonnaise to his range. The slogan would almost write itself!

James

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Originally Posted by pfries

My razors tell me when they are done, not the other way around.

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Well said.

I have, at times, estimated how long a razor might require for proper honing (at least to my abilities) and in every case, my estimate was wrong. Some much faster, some much slower...

Point being, the razor don't care what you think. It has it's own needs...

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Originally Posted by straightrazorheaven

This is excellent advice. My mother (YES MOTHER) gave me this advice before I started honing professionally.
Had she not told me over and over again to take my time I wouldn't have the understanding I do now.
Time isn't a useful measurement of success, the razor is though.
After you master your skills, and are getting repeatable results over and over again, then you can start to look at the time it takes, and how to refine your honing progression/technique to get quicker.

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I still remember my mothers advice when I took up shaving all those years ago. She was doing a second pass at the time and had to take her pipe out of her mouth to talk to me. She sighed, turned round to face me, half her face still covered with lather and water droplets playfully twinkling on the 'cut here' tattoo around her neck in the yellow morning sunlight streaming through the window.

She grasped my hand with her 'l-o-v-e' tattooed one with the missing thumb (lost in a threshing machine incident), and said, in a slow, measured voice "Son, get the hell out of the bathroom.' Of course, I understood. as I passed through the bathroom door dad wiped the flour off his hands on his new gingham pinny and patted me on the head.

It's moments like that that stick with a man.

Regards,
Neil

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Can NOT! :p

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Cool Hand Luke Onimaru can!

I, finally, am speachless! WELL SAID, Neil!

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Cool Hand Luke Onimaru can!

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Get it on!
Attachment 125921

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Originally Posted by straightrazorheaven

..............Time isn't a useful measurement of success, the razor is though.
After you master your skills, and are getting repeatable results over and over again, then you can start to look at the time it takes, and how to refine your honing progression/technique to get quicker.

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Maybe??

I ponder to think what Goro Masamune would have thought about this path to success. :hmmm:

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Cool Hand Luke Onimaru can!

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In an hour . :p

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

Maybe??

I ponder to think what Goro Masamune would have thought about this path to success. :hmmm:

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Probably wouldn't have thought about it at all. Thinking prevents mushin no shin. ;)

Wow this thread got :HJ

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Probably wouldn't have thought about it at all. Thinking prevents mushin no shin. ;)

Wow this thread got :HJ

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Yes, these honing threads tend to generate "Too Much Mind." :D

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Originally Posted by pfries

My razors tell me when they are done, not the other way around.

I don't watch the clock or count laps until I am working with one that I am intimately familiar with and then I only count laps.

I have a a few that come out from the work pile and go back to it, they will make the grade at some point, but it is up to them not me when that happens.

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I tried telling a razor she was done once and boy did she bite in the most unpleasant way. That was back when I first started honing. TELLING your razor what to do is like telling your wife what to do with out saying please, thank you or giving her flowers after.

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Originally Posted by brooksie967

I tried telling a razor she was done once and boy did she bite in the most unpleasant way. That was back when I first started honing. TELLING your razor what to do is like telling your wife what to do with out saying please, thank you or giving her flowers after.

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So do the flowers work on Razors?
I just traded in the stones for six pack of black and tan, and a shave I will have to share for the good, the bad, or the ugly.

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Originally Posted by brooksie967

I tried telling a razor she was done once and boy did she bite in the most unpleasant way. That was back when I first started honing. TELLING your razor what to do is like telling your wife what to do with out saying please, thank you or giving her flowers after.

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I'll take the biting razor any day vs the biting wife!

I feel your pain! I have a Wade and Butcher semi wedge. Tried and tried to hone it, with no success. I'd watched Lynns video on the Naniwa Super Stones(which is what I have, 1000,5000,8000,12000). Still no luck. What I ultimately did was at the 1000 and 5000 level, I doubled the number of circles and x strokes and at the 8000 and 12000 level, I did 50% more. I tried to cut hairs on my right arm at the halfway point, and hairs on my left fell off! Good luck.