Honing toes and heels...

I'm finding that I pretty consistently have trouble getting the toes and heels of my blades as sharp as they should be. The middle of the blade will be just fine, but one or both of these areas just won't cooperate. I usually end up having to do some circular honing on just the trouble spot to get the whole blade sharp.

I typically do X-patterns on a 3-inch Norton. I will sometimes rock the blade during the stroke, which helps in some cases and not in others.

What are some things I could try to fix this annoying problem? If I could get the blade even in the first place, I could probably cut 30 to 60 minutes off the time it takes me to hone a blade... :shrug:

Thanks for any suggestions,
Josh

Too much pressure? Inconsistent angles during the X? Lifting the spine? All these are possibilities.

When you use the Norton, do the heel and tip leave the hone surface?

If so, this may be the cause.

I'm NOT an expert, but I keep playing with my barber's hones - none of which is more than 2" wide, so there's a real risk of honing the middle more than the tip or heel.

What I do - especially with a new razor is to periodically do a few laps where I make sure the heel stays in contact with the hone (no lateral movement across the hone) and then roughly the same number of laps where I start the razor on the hone so that the tip and the first 1/3 or 1/2 the razor is on the hone.

This is a trick I read about in the context of using barber's hones to create a slight smile and/or prevent creating a frown.

I think that doing this at the in the middle of your honing on a particular grit will help keep things evened out and help you get your tip and heel as sharp as the middle.

I'm in the process of evening out a nice 1/4 wedge where the tip and heel were much duller than the middle. I'll even do the same sort of thing on the coarser grits of my pasted strop if I notice any uneveness in the edge.

If you keep the entire length of the blade on the Norton the whole way down the stone, then you may want to experiment with some very light pressure on the tip and heel - I sometimes use one, two or three fingers on the spine to both steady the razor and/or put a little pressure where I think its needed.

Again, I'm NOT an expert, so you might want to wait for others to chime in before trying anything I've suggested.

When you roll, make sure that you never have a moment where just he heel or toe are being honed. Support those areas with more of the rest of the blade at all times and things should get more consistent for you. Rolling most blades is an extremely subtle motion.

X

X,

So you're saying that combining the rolling motion with the X-pattern isn't a good idea? The way I understand your honing stroke, you go straight across while rolling the blade, right?

When doing the regular X-stroke, having just the tip on the hone is unavoidable. Maybe I'm pulling too much of the razor off the hone, though.

Sometimes I have 1/3 of the blade on the stone, but at others I run the tip right off the hone. (Sounds worse than it is, really. :) ) Usually I only do that if I'm having trouble getting the tip sharp, so maybe my instincts are working against me.

I'm thinking that the last part of my stroke is the problem, though. I'll have to analyze it more closely...

Josh

I guess what I'm trying to suggest is that if you're rolling from only the right over to only the tip it's easy to put too much emphasis on these areas and thus overhone them. Evenness on all parts of the lade throughout the stroke is crucial. When you hone the middle of the blade it is always supported by a wide area on either side. You should give the tip and heel the same advantage.

Whether you are x-ing as well is really a personal matter and every honer finds their own way through the woods. I believe I watched Ilija lay his first finger along the spine while honing. Lynn hones up and down (away from himself and back, like stropping) and lays his fingers on either side (top & bottom) of the shank. I hone side to side and like to get a more rounded grip and keep my thumb on top contacting the edge side of the grip while my fingers reach underneath, the forefinger contacting the spine side of the grip for even torsion in both directions. The other thing I find helps me is not to do a full x but just to take the heel about ¼ off the hone throughout the stroke. The reason I think this may work better for me is because the heel always has a different pressure than the rest of the blade by virtue of being closer to my hand which is the point applying the force and holding the razor steady.

Hope this helps.

X

Running the tip off the hone - this does sound bad. I've done it several times, always with bad consequences, as far as I remember. I would suggest that you try to avoid it.

I hate it, but sometimes I too am reduced to honing just the toe or heel on a barber's hone in order to get them as sharp as the middle. I wish I had the right touch to just address these occasional problems with the X or plain pressure on the tip / toe just sliding straight the full blade on a 3" hone...

Cheers
Ivo

When using a honing surface that's not as wide as the blade I don't think having to spend some additional time on the parts that don't stay in contact with the honing surface for the entire stroke is a sign of poor technique. Its simply the case that the part of the blade that's always in contact with the hone is going to get honed more and that this is something that needs to be corrected for.

My sense (and again, I'm NOT an expert) is that having to do some heel or tip only strokes is not uncommon when using barber's hones. Obviously, the wider the hone, the less of a problem this is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by suzuki

When using a honing surface that's not as wide as the blade I don't think having to spend some additional time on the parts that don't stay in contact with the honing surface for the entire stroke is a sign of poor technique. Its simply the case that the part of the blade that's always in contact with the hone is going to get honed more and that this is something that needs to be corrected for.

My sense (and again, I'm NOT an expert) is that having to do some heel or tip only strokes is not uncommon when using barber's hones. Obviously, the wider the hone, the less of a problem this is.

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I meant I wish I was good enough so that I can use a narrow hone in a way so that all parts spend the same amount on the hone, with the same pressure, and get even sharpness.

Cheers
Ivo

Have you tried the magic marker along the edge trick? Could help you analyse and rectify the beginning and end of your honing stroke, which I guess is where you have the problems.

Using two hands to hone (one at the heel, one at the tip) can help too.

James.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Have you tried the magic marker along the edge trick? Could help you analyse and rectify the beginning and end of your honing stroke, which I guess is where you have the problems.

Using two hands to hone (one at the heel, one at the tip) can help too.

James.

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Hi James -

I do the marker occasionally (when I'm stumped) and always use 2 hands. The position might change though - depending on the razor. E.g. - I might have a finger or more on the mid section, or on the toe - depending on what I am dealing with

I don't generally have problems - just sometimes. Like with warped blades, bad geometry, uneven spine wear, etc.

Cheers
Ivo

The magic marker trick is great for showing you which parts of the blade aren't getting honed, but one thing it doesn't tell you is why some parts aren't getting honed.

It could be a problem with your stroke, or the blade could be warped or worn...

Last night I tried using a coarse barber hone to work the tip of a razor I was having trouble with. It let me use small strokes and focus just on just the tip, and after about 15 minutes I had it passing the HHT. I'll have to experiment with this some more...

Josh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by izlat

Hi James -

I do the marker occasionally (when I'm stumped) and always use 2 hands. The position might change though - depending on the razor. E.g. - I might have a finger or more on the mid section, or on the toe - depending on what I am dealing with

I don't generally have problems - just sometimes. Like with warped blades, bad geometry, uneven spine wear, etc.

Cheers
Ivo

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Ivo,

Sorry, I misunderstood. I've (luckily) never had a warped blade but I can imagine how tough it would be to get an even edge on one.

I've got plenty with uneven hone wear though - the two hands thing works well on these. I hone north/south (if that makes sense). On the "towards me" stroke my pointer fingers rest on the spine and I let my thumbs rest down near the edge. At the beginning of the stroke I apply a bit of pressure to the thumb at the heel, and as the stroke progresses (in an X pattern) I gradually transfer that pressure to the thumb at the tip. On the "away" stroke I rest my thumbs on the spine and use my pointers for the pressure variation. But I'm guessing this is probably what people refer to as the "rocking" motion? Sorry if I'm telling people how to suck eggs...

James.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Ivo,

Sorry if I'm telling people how to suck eggs...

James.

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nah, as I said I am not as good as I would like to be and it's good to have discussions

Cheers
Ivo

Sometimes the shape of the blade makes it necessary to use non standard honing strokes. I have used the baber hone method on some plades that had a pronounced smile to them and also the 45 degree angle X combined with a rocking motion. It really depends on the shape of the blade and the hones that you are using. I experiment and use what works.

I have dozens of razors in my study collection and many are old and some are new. The toes and heels are especially "issue" areas even with brand new factory blades. If you watch the video of the Dovo manufacturing process, you'll see that most of the honing is on the center of the blade and not the toe or heel. In the knife industry we call that a "factory edge" and it's fine for most folks but many like to bring out the true potential of the steel and heat treat. You'll have to do your best on the toe especially as it's important for the hollows in your neck (well, my neck anyway...).