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I got my Naniwa 12K today and Phil from classic edge included an Escher dark blue slurry stone as a freebie for shipping delays.
Now, it is my understanding that the Naniwa ss are fairly soft stones and that thurrys are more or less harder stones.
How will these two stones interact with each other? Wouldn't I just be getting slurry from the nani and not the thurry? How do you guys recommend I use the thurry slurry stone?
My task is refreshing a blade currently.
Hard to say for sure until you try it :)
But I think you are right the Thuri/Escher is probably harder then the SS,, the colors of the slurry will tell you a ton..
Using any slurry is a learning experience, you have to take the time to figure out if it is advantageous and how to get the most out of it..
In general I start with 20 Pigtail laps then dilute out over the next 10 laps that is just a starting point, each Stone/Hone and the effects of the slurry will lead you along..
I have used turi slury with the Zulu with good success. What I do as not to glaze the Zulu, is to work the turi slury on an Atoma 1200 and then rinsing it with little water in to the Zulu. Just a suggestion in case you don't like the results of the Nani 12 with the turi slury combination. Double O
I'm not really getting any slurry from the thurry from what i can tell, it just seems like I'm getting dark crap when I do laps on the hone with the blade...isn't that swarf? I thought you weren't supposed to get swarf above a 4K (according to the wiki)? I'm especially getting this black crap along the edge of the hone where the heel is and don't know why, especially because I've lapped it flat.
I'm suffering from information overload right now and getting quite frustrated from my first honing experience. My blade isn't sharp enough...it will shave, just not very well, and it won't pop arm hairs off. Do I need a different stone or what's the deal? HELP
Swarf is simply removed metal. If there is none, the stone is not cutting. Can you reference that Wiki page. I'd like to read it in context.Quote:
Originally Posted by kwlfca
I get swarf on my 12k Shap & even on my most exe Jnat. Depends on how many strokes I do.
Possibly the dark line at the edge of the stone is your area of greatest contact. Not necessarily a bad thing. Just shows you don't need a narrow hone for warped razors as you can direct the contact at will.
Did you finish on water alone ? That would be the way for a 12k synthetic.
http://i42.tinypic.com/24uz5o2.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by kwlfca
Just did a quick test. Escher slurry stone does not seem to release when rubbed on SS 12k.
As a control, I rubbed it on a much harder synthetic stone, and it slurried just fine.
You could use it to selectively lower high spots on your stones, the way Japanese woodworkers use nagura to even out Jnats.
It also seems to raise slurry on 12k like crazy, so if you are into slurrying synthetics, seems to work well there too.
Good luck.
I've tried with thick slurry, thin slurry and just water...still not as sharp as I think it should be. Should i continue and do way more laps? It's not popping arm hairs :cQuote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
"If you develop swarf on the 8k, it means you went there too soon and need to go back to the 4k." was the quote that may be confusing me, from page New to honing, Read this - Straight Razor Place Wiki
I believe what the is trying to say is that you shouldn't have to remove so much metal on the 8K if you got it right on the 4K.Quote:
Originally Posted by kwlfca
Any stone, how fine doesn't matter, should give you swarf if it is cutting the steel.
How can I clean the nani 12K? It seems to load up on swarf rather easily.
Just lap it . OR If it is very superficial your slurry stone might even remove the swarf.Quote:
Originally Posted by kwlfca
I think that Wiki quote needs reading between the lines. Lemur summed it up nicely.
Look at the pic in the link below & I think you will see swarf on the 8k Norton.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...tml#post890465
With a DMT 325 or 1000k sand paper, or by rubbing the turi on the surface till all the dwarf comes out of the stone. I wouldn't obsess about having 100% clean surface, but you do want to clean it from time to time.Quote:
Originally Posted by kwlfca
I think you may be using too much pressure on the blade, to get all that swarf on the Nani 12k. I do get some light swarf on my 16k Shapton glass but it is easily washed with a rinse. And after several razors, it may need a light lapping.
This is a shot in the dark, but try 10-15 passes with very very light pressure on the edge of the blade. Make sure it is moving water all along the edge, with the lightest pressure you can. Then strop linen and leather and see if it pops hair. Even if it doesn't, try shaving with it ( have a backup, in case you need to bail). After that, I think, you will be able to know if its close or far. If its far from shave ready, you may need to go to a lower grid stone. Do you have other lower stones? Other wise, send it in to be hone.
A shave ready razor that needs a touch up, at least in the Shapton G 16K, only requires 6 to 15 passes at the most. Don't know in the Naniwa, but start with the less than more.
The thing about using too much pressure is that it destroys the sharpness of the edge. Too light a pressure and it would not move water along the edge.
Don't give up, we all been there. I gave 30-40 passes first time I touched up a razor. The edge looked like a saw under the loupe. Good luck! Double O
Are you trying to touch-up the Electric Cutlery razor?
Yep. Got the 12K like you said. Isn't really working out and I don't have a lower K stone to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter74743
That razor has some really hard steel, don't give up on it quite yet...
So how do I get it back to it's former sharpness? Will slurry help speed things up or should I leave it alone for now?
I've done like 40 laps and tried to shave to see an improvement, more than once, and gotten little improvement, if any.
Maybe if it is really hard steel a bit of pressure might be appropriate
This idea combined with the Magic Marker test would show you what you are accomplishing if anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Havachat45
There has to be "Contact" with the hone and it has to be even and equal along the entire edge, the MM test will show what you are touching with your stroke, and then you can tweak the motion and the pressure so the you are getting even and equal contact along the entire edge...
I went back and lapped on my 320 wet dry sandpaper again to try to eliminate as many variables as possible and also to get a rougher surface on my hone to work with. Before, I would smooth out the surface with the thurry after I lapped, but I thought hey, if I want try to going at it with a lower grit but don't have a lower grit stone...well, you get the picture.
This gave me some much needed success. How much, I can't say for sure as I'd already shaved today, but I was able to shave arm hair, which I wasn't before.
I first used pressure until I thought I had gotten it sharp enough, then used less and less pressure as I went on.
After that, I smoothed out the stone some with the thurry and did some more laps, maybe around ten up and down and then ten x strokes, then smoothed out the stone a bit more and did the ten up and down and ten x stokes again. Smoothed out the stone once more and then alternated up and down and x stroke, decreasing pressure from very little to none...basically trying to emulate the finishing stokes that I've seen you do in your videos Glen.
Cleaned, dried and gave it a stropping and set it aside for the next time I shave.
I could have done more perhaps, but I didn't want to do anything else without being able to do a shave test. I did improve the edge though, which, after days of doing nothing, I'm happy about. Feels nice to finally make some headway.
I'm not sure if I had lapped it enough when I first did it. I drew my grid and lapped it off, or so I thought, multiple times but maybe it was just washing off. This time I used a sharpie to make little x's in all four corners, two on either side in the middle, one in the middle and connected them with dotted lines. I think the middle of the hone was higher than the ends.
I also noticed that until today's lapping, I wasn't getting the sound that I hear whenever I watch Lynn or Glen hone in their videos.
I'll just have to wait until my next shave to be able to fully judge what I did today. Thanks to everyone keeping an eye out on this thread to help me out and keeping me from :banghead:
You are taking the right approach, slow and determined, eliminating variables as you go, honestly I can't give any better advice then what you are already doing..
The fact that you are stopping and checking with each step is the correct way to proceed, it lets you analyze what each session is doing at the edge in relation to how it feels on the face... :tu
I think I just had to leave it alone for a day...that's usually when fresh ideas pop into your head!
I'll say one thing for sure...my next hone will be either the nani 3K/8K or the norton 4K/8K. Are there any real differences between them? IIRC from the specs, the nani gives you slightly more stone thickness and it doesn't need to be soaked like a norton does. That's about all I know.
I know too many cooks may tend to spoil the broth but ........ in my long life I have never used slurry on a synthetic stone. I'm not saying it is not a good thing to do, maybe it is great. Just that I've never done it and my razors have been honing up fine. Say that to say, get the lower grit combo stone and leave the electric co. razor alone until you do.
You're trying to do a 4/8k job with your 12k finishing stone and sounds like the edge ain't ready yet. You could probably get there eventually with the 12k but why waste stone and elbow grease when the right tool will get it there more quickly and efficiently.
Get the naniwa 3/8 or the norton 4/8 and then work on the razor. Also, just IMHO, don't use slurry until you are getting practiced at honing with good results without it. Once you can get the razors sharp and smooth with water only introduce slurry into the equation. When you're still in the learning stages it is just one more thing to complicate your results . BTW, just me but I favor the norton combo myself. YMMV.
IMHO, your next stone should be a bevel setter, and, buy electric tape too, for the spine. Since the razor couldn't shave arm hair, it was the bevel, I think.
Most of us here can shave hair relatively easily after an 1k stone. If your razor couldn't do that, that's what you need.
How much time have you spend honing on the 12k? Was it a "bevel refreshing" or bevel resetting what you did? That's what many old barbers did, and, I don't want to imagine bevel restoration with a Thuringian, it will take a while.
Buy a king 1k if you don't want to spend a lot of money, or a Chosera 1k or Sigma select II 1.2k if you want the best stones possible, arguably. And a 3-4k, the brand is your choice, they all work. The gap between 3-4k and 12k is small, you don't necessarily need something in between.
Everyone who wants to hone his own razors definitely needs a 4-8k or 3-8k or something that covers this grit range, but everyone forgets the bevel setter.
The original post, he shouldn't need anything but the Nainiwa 12k SS at this point in time
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwlfca
A razor that couldn't shave arm hair until yesterday doesn't really sound like it just needs refreshing on a finisher, but I might be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Unfortunately, setting it aside isn't really an option as this is my only razor. I'm just trying to refresh the edge that was already established by shooter74743. I agree that having a lower grit stone would probably have made things easier, and perhaps I should have gotten the combo instead of the nani12K, but I literally just got the 12K and cannot spend another $100 on another stone (as much as I'd love to but every stone lol!). I agree with not using the slurry as well, which is why I cut that variable out today :)Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
At least I got to where I wanted to be, or at least closer to it!
I agree, and like shooter said, it's really hard steel (he would know, he's the one that I got the razor from as well as the one who honed it) so I just didn't give up on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
What's kept me going is the fact that 1) the bevel is good and 2)the fact that it IS possible to do one stone honing. Since I'm just doing a refresh, I shouldn't need more than one stone :)
And I know that some prefer to hone with tape on the spine and some don't...I honestly don't care to ever use tape on the spine (especially when shooter didn't use tape, otherwise I'd get a divergent bevel), but that's just my personal preference.
Sorry it's taken a bit for me to get back to you. I'm in agreement about the pressure, just don't use enough pressure to flex the blade. Once you shave with it, hopefully it will be useable or close. That razor was also honed without tape IIRC, so if you were to add one layer of tape to the spine, you would be doing more work to the edge. Try that first with about 20 x strokes. Also, the magic marker test tells an awful lot when you are having trouble honing a blade.
If that doesn't get it, look at some of the video's of Lynn or Glen (gssixgun) on some circles. Try some circles of 10 on each side 4 times & follow up with about 20 x strokes. That Electric Cutlery razor is typical New York steel, hard & holds an edge for quite a while. Don't be afraid to start out your honing (on the 12K) with some pressure and gradually let up on it. Never put enough pressure on the blade to flex it though as if you flex it you aren't doing anything good for the blade...I know I repeated this, but it is important.
Lastly my friend, honing is about one of the toughest & most frustrating parts of our "sport". YOU WILL NOT LEARN IT ON THE FIRST FEW RAZORS YOU HONE, PERIOD. It probably took me fifty razors to even get somewhat proficient at honing & there is no telling how many times I had to go back and re-hone a razor because it didn't shave like it should to get those fifty honed. Hundreds of razors later, I'm still learning. Once you get to where you can hone proficiently though, you will wonder why the heck it was so tough to "break-through"...I did & most others will agree too.
Will I be able to get it as sharp as you got it? My shave today was okay but not what it was. What should I do Scott?
Repeat what worked, it should get back there. Worse case scenario, you send it out to have it re-honed. Don't fret, worrying gets you nothing but ulcers. You improved the edge from what it was, so do it again, and again, until it's right. If I have a razor in my rotation that's not right, I will stick with it until I have it shaving like I want. This can take me a couple times on my finishing stone I keep in the bathroom & I have a bit more experience than you...but we are doing the same thing. I give the razor the amount of strokes on the stone I think are right and strop, shower, shave. If it's not right I do it again until it is. Have patience my friend...