C12K touchup

Ok, so my razor was starting to tug and pull a little and not getting great shaves. I decided to try touchup on C12K instead of CrOx on the linen strop. I started with a light slurry and diluted as I went until I was using just water. I did approx 20 strokes before diluting and was probably around 100 total. It would shave hairs on arm next to the skin just fine but when I tried halfway up the hairs it wasn't really popping them. So I did 10 strokes on CrOx on the linen and then stropped about 50 stokes clean linen and 100 on the leather. It was popping hairs like crazy and is probably sharpest it's been. It shaved GREAT, really smooth, so I even tried a little ATG and it just cut smoothly through the whiskers! I was real happy with that! My question is, should the razor come off the finishing stone popping hairs easily, or do you always need a followup on a paste to be able to do that? I know I should have shaved with it first and tried it, but I thought since it wasn't popping hairs that it wasn't ready for a shave and that I might have dulled it. This is the sharpest and smoothest it's been. It was probably that sharp and smooth when I got it but I couldn't tell you because my technique was so bad I dulled it within a couple of weeks shaving before my first touchup on CrOx.

Congratulations

At skin level always yes. At least for my preference.

Mid hair sometimes yes sometimes no. Just to many variables for a hard and fast rule.

Jonathan

I have a C12k that has finished many of my razors in rotation.
I finish at over 100 laps & it varies with the razor, no slurry involved with my C12k at any point.
The only time I involve hair that is not on my face, is at the setting of the bevel at 1k.
If the razor does not shave arm hair smoothly at 1k, I don't move up the hones.
How did you decide that shaving arm hair after a finishing stone was beneficial?

Never said it was beneficial, maybe just a reference a newb uses, but a reference nevertheless. I know the CrOx is just supposed to be smoothing and not sharpening but I was just wondering why the difference? If it's already as sharp as it's going to get off the lower stones and the higher ones are just smoothing, and the CrOx is just smoothing, then to me it should pop hairs the same and you would just feel the difference in how smooth it shaves.

Also, I'm just doing a touchup. When I can't keep it shaving I plan to send it to a pro for honing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hirlau

I have a C12k that has finished many of my razors in rotation.
I finish at over 100 laps & it varies with the razor, no slurry involved with my C12k at any point.
The only time I involve hair that is not on my face, is at the setting of the bevel at 1k.
If the razor does not shave arm hair smoothly at 1k, I don't move up the hones.
How did you decide that shaving arm hair after a finishing stone was beneficial?

---

Should have asked this in previous reply, sorry. Do you shave right off the C12K? If so, how did that compare to a finish with CrOx? I know it's a personal preference and that some people might like an edge off of different surfaces. Just wondering what difference you found in the two personally.

Not being combative here, so don't take it that way; there is a difference in "finishing" a razor & "touching" a razor up that had been giving you good shaves, but now is starting to lack.

To slurry a C12k, 20 laps, then 100 more water laps is where you probably went backwards in the results you wanted.

My suggestion is if your going to keep using your C12k, then learn a little more about it in the threads provided in the library. They can have a way about them.

Newb or not, if a reference cannot provide you benefit, then get rid of that reference. It will only serve to confuse you.

Jetmech,
I would not know Crox if it came knocking on my door. I have never used pastes & never had the desire to. I'm a stone person & yes, I shave off of my C12K. Eleblu05 (Craig) taught me how to use my C12k. Do I think it's a great finisher, no but it does give me smooth shaves.

No offense taken, just trying to understand and learn. So you think I may have dulled it a little with the slurry? Got it. No slurry next time. So what reference do you use to know when you have done enough laps on the C12K or any other finisher for that matter? Visual inspection with magnification?

I dont use visual after the bevel is set. I used to look for scratch patterns etc but if you do a certain amount of circles and laps and x strokes, you will get to know where you should be. The most important though is that the bevel is truly set. It all hangs on that. I do aht after bevel set and then after the 12k or equivalent(I use film 1 micron) I do hht, then crox linen hanger hht ,then leather 50 laps and hht again. I always get an improvement each step. I usually end up with hht 4 and sometimes 5(silent hht). The ultimate is the shave test of course. The only test that matters. If you can learn these tests, they reveal alot and will show you whether you are progressively sharpening and polishing the edge. YMMV as not everyones arm hairs pop and not everyone can do the hht.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jetmech

No offense taken, just trying to understand and learn. So you think I may have dulled it a little with the slurry? Got it. No slurry next time. So what reference do you use to know when you have done enough laps on the C12K or any other finisher for that matter? Visual inspection with magnification?

---

Visual inspection helps me when I first receive a razor & need to hone it. Visual Inspection is used to evaluate the blade & determine how I want to proceed in the honing process, from the bevel set through finish.
The reference that I always used for the C12k & other finishers is the shave test; does it shave smoothly is what I ask myself. Listening to others before me that had a C12k, a common comment was that it was a slow finisher requiring a high number of strokes. Keeping this in mind, I experimented with stroke increases by 40 count , over a peroid of 2 weeks. I always kept another razor on standby to finish out the shave as I experimented with the C12k. With full Sheffield wedges, I found that 160 to 180 strokes gave me a good comfortable shave. Full hollows around 120 strokes.

As for a reference with other finishers, I listen to the experiences of others before me that have used finishers that I what to buy. I pay attention to their feedback & when I get that stone, I experiment with at least 2 different styles of razors. It took me about a month of experimenting with my coticule to determine how it performs, it's been 3 weeks now with a borrowed Zulu Grey to see some great shaves. My Shapton 16k was my first finisher, I bought it on day one of my shaving journey, even before my first shave. I knew that I would learn to hone my own razors from the beginning. I was fortunate enough to have enough money set aside to get the razor , brush, strop & stones. I got my first great shave off the Shapton 16k about 9 months later. I'm a slow learner.

My only advice in this situation, is do not get involved in various hair tests. Use the arm hair shave at determining the bevel, then use the hair on your face to test it, The Shave Test.

Just my thoughts.

How many strokes for touchups on C12K? I assume the 120 is for after honing?

There are no hard set and true numbers for a natural hone like the c12k. The only way of getting a number that works for your stone is to test it yourself like Hirlau did on his. A good starting point would be 40 laps. Then you test shave it . If that doesn't work come back do another 40 laps. Then test shave. You would continue doing that till you are getting a smooth comfortable shave.

Now you made a statement about crox only being for smoothing not sharpening which is not a true statement. Crox does sharpen the blade it just does it very slowly compared to other thing.

Cool! Thanks guys. I thought I had read somewhere that it's as sharp as it gets after bevel setting and that everything after is just smoothing the striations out. I thought that the CrOx was sharpening as well as smoothing. That's what I was really looking for was what works for someone else and how many strokes. I know, I know, YMMV. :D

Hirlau, thanks for clearing up the slurry thing. I just thought that since I read that the c12k was so slow that I'd speed it up a little with the slurry. I'll try my next refresh starting with 40 laps with just water. I've also read to use a little soap. When I was just using water I tried a little and it really smoothed it out. That shouldn't impede results should it?

Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with slurry on a C12k, it will probably speed up the cut some. I just don't slurry it. I try to get to know a stone a bit more, before I start with slurry experiments.

I don't know what to say about your soap results, maybe a member with more time on the stones can explain your soap results.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hirlau

Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with slurry on a C12k, it will probably speed up the cut some. I just don't slurry it. I try to get to know a stone a bit more, before I start with slurry experiments.

I don't know what to say about your soap results, maybe a member with more time on the stones can explain your soap results.

---

Well the results were a very satisfactory shave. I just wondered if you'd tried it both ways and what your results were, or if the soap would make it cut even slower. When using mine I sometimes feel little ticks when running the blade across it using just water and the soap seemed to make that feeling go away.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hirlau

As for a reference with other finishers, I listen to the experiences of others before me that have used finishers that I what to buy. I pay attention to their feedback & when I get that stone, I experiment with at least 2 different styles of razors. It took me about a month of experimenting with my coticule to determine how it performs, it's been 3 weeks now with a borrowed Zulu Grey to see some great shaves. My Shapton 16k was my first finisher, I bought it on day one of my shaving journey, even before my first shave. I knew that I would learn to hone my own razors from the beginning. I was fortunate enough to have enough money set aside to get the razor , brush, strop & stones. I got my first great shave off the Shapton 16k about 9 months later. I'm a slow learner.

My only advice in this situation, is do not get involved in various hair tests. Use the arm hair shave at determining the bevel, then use the hair on your face to test it, The Shave Test.

Just my thoughts.

---

What finisher do you get the best shave from?

I hate to answer this because there are so many variables in my "best shaves".
I don't want you to take my best finisher, as a standard for you.

I can say that, as I get more experience with honing, the quality/condition of my razors play a more important part in the end result, with any of my finishers.

Sorry, I won't throw out a favorite finisher. I love all my stones. :shrug:

I haven't heard of using soap with a c12k. Should work fine I would think if you like it.

Where the idea of using some dish soap in your water came from was as a substitution for oil on oil stones. Most guys here don't like to use oil on any of there stones the alternative that some found was to use the dish soap and water to mimic the slickness of oil.

I have tried it before on a new oil stone I had bought but after trying it a couple times I just found I like oil on my oil stones better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hirlau

I hate to answer this because there are so many variables in my "best shaves".
I don't want you to take my best finisher, as a standard for you.

I can say that, as I get more experience with honing, the quality/condition of my razors play a more important part in the end result, with any of my finishers.

Sorry, I won't throw out a favorite finisher. I love all my stones. :shrug:

---

Don't worry, I won't hold you accountable for my next stone purchase;) Would you at least say whether you prefer naturals over synthetics?

On a side note, I already have a King 800 and 6000 set of water stones with Nagura stone that I currently use for woodworking tools. I have a DMT that I use for lapping those. I will eventually fill in the gap with another stone and use these if/when I decide to hone my razor myself. The other (I have two) razor I will send out for professional honing so I will have a benchmark.

O.K.,,,,,,you got me cornered. :matrix:

I prefer naturals on the weekends & synthetics during the week. :D

:gaah: Guess I'll have to find out myself.

Nope, not giving up yet. What natural has the least learning curve.:)

The Zulu Grey,,,, because it is the last one I have used, therefore I have a little more experience to fall back on.
Also, the guys here have done some detailed write ups on the Zulu Grey.

OK, I'm getting the Zulu Grey!:tu


Just kidding! Hey, thanks for the responses and the help. Hopefully it'll be a while before I need a honing and I can research some more and decide on what I want.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jetmech

Ok, so my razor was starting to tug and pull a little and not getting great shaves. I decided to try touchup on C12K instead of CrOx on the linen strop. I started with a light slurry and diluted as I went until I was using just water. I did approx 20 strokes before diluting and was probably around 100 total. It would shave hairs on arm next to the skin just fine but when I tried halfway up the hairs it wasn't really popping them. So I did 10 strokes on CrOx on the linen and then stropped about 50 stokes clean linen and 100 on the leather. It was popping hairs like crazy and is probably sharpest it's been. It shaved GREAT, really smooth, so I even tried a little ATG and it just cut smoothly through the whiskers! I was real happy with that! My question is, should the razor come off the finishing stone popping hairs easily, or do you always need a followup on a paste to be able to do that? I know I should have shaved with it first and tried it, but I thought since it wasn't popping hairs that it wasn't ready for a shave and that I might have dulled it. This is the sharpest and smoothest it's been. It was probably that sharp and smooth when I got it but I couldn't tell you because my technique was so bad I dulled it within a couple of weeks shaving before my first touchup on CrOx.

---

I have (almost) this exact question but reading through the answers it seems as it often does on here that the answer is- try it all and see what works. I do wonder how many others can get a "harshly sharp" or "over sharp" blade off a 12k like you can off crox