Touching up and finishing

Hey guys..
Ok here it comes.. I learning that from the Hones I have that I should drop 2 and hone to touch up a razor.. ,meaning I have a 12 k nainwa and a 4/8 norton.. So when touching up I should drop down to the 8 k do 10 strokes then back up to the nainwa 12k for 10 strokes then strop.. That would be a touchups.. Now I usually hone on a king 1 k for bevel then 4/8 norton.. How would I finish on a 12k .. Would I just do 10 laps on the nainwa after I finish the pyramid then diamond spray then 10 scrub 75 plain..

No sure where that advice came from,,,,,,:confused:
Touch up by revisiting your finishing stone, with a few light, 5-10 strokes, then your stropping routine.
When touching up, I have never had to drop below my finisher.

I would do more laps. Like 20 circles, 20 laps, 20 x strokes. If theres alot of slurry on the 8k, I would hit the 4k. If not 5 circles, 5 laps and 5 x strokes on the 12k and you should be good.

I'm with Hirlau on this one. Less is more, so try a few light strokes + stropping and see how it stands. If you have to go down to the 8k, then do so, but check first whether it's necessary.

Bill - by 'slurry' do you mean swarf? I.e. metal that has been removed and deposited on the hone?

EDIT: my advice above is strictly for 'touching up' as indicated by the OP. IMHO if one has to go much beyond a finisher, one is also going beyond 'touching up'.

Ok that would b a touch up correct.. When I finished most of these razors i only had a 4/8 k norton then a bought the 12 k most of the razors i own were finished on the 8 k .. So,now that I have the 12k how could I go back and finish what I finished on the 8 k with the 12 k.
.. I guess basically what I'm asking is what's the difference in the process between touching up and finishing.. The touch up i get ..5-10 laps on my finish stone strop and shave when razor starts pulling. Where would I incorporate the nainwa 12 k into the pyramid because the pyramid i learned on here you finished on the 8 k

Only my two cents here.

As you do not need to take them back to the hones I personally would hit them on the 8k razor only pressure for 5 laps. (as gssixgun put it butterfly kisses)

This would be more to set up/refresh the scratch pattern to remove on 12k.

and it could be anywhere from 10-25 laps on the 12k, each steel will act unique and will have its own sweet spot.

I tried the pyramid for a short while, I don't like to use it, just as some steel needs more time on a hone it added a lot of variables into the formula.

It very quickly taught me when a razor was ready for the next step, and how the different grinds and steels can feel.

I now opt for a linear progression.

I'm still learning and have had success with the pyramids... My problem is still not knowing when it's time to move up the hones.. I understand how to set the bevel and have had success.. But once i hit the 4 k I'm lost .. I have no idea what the tpt should feel like .. So Im lost when to move up.. I read on another forum that if when I get to the 8 k and its leaving visible metal on the 8 k the work wasn't done on the 4 k..how do u know when to move up?? Magpie taught me when the water starts actually running over the blade and not pushing it its time to move up??

If you can nail the bevel you can gage a lot on sight (under a loupe) as you are refining the bevel you set.

I go by feel, a blade changes its feel a few strokes in on a higher grit stone, develops that quickly and I hesitate to say changes its feel again but it does,

you can more feel that it quits developing if that makes sense.

At 1k I do TPT and arm hair test (I used to also use the TNT but not anymore) , at 5k I do arm hair (it changes) and that is my last test prior to the shave test.

I'm just gonna have to practice... And learn the feel .. I do the TNT for the bevel .. I also have a loupe.. So when using the loupe am I just looking at the scratch pattern. Change along the edge of the blade??

That is how I do it.

If the bevel is set properly the rest is refinement, I only do "Work on the 5k down, and I say this because I will step to the 5k right at the end of removing micro pits/chips now,

not something I did when first starting out.

I found that I could see the teeth left from the 1k and would lose sight of them in the final stages.

Anything past 5k for me is not "work" it is polish/refinement.

Yeah, a lot of it is just down to practice to develop feel, and once that happens you'll have a much better idea when to move up to the next hone.

That having been said, if the pyramid is what works for you, then run with it! Like pfries, I used to use the pyramid but gradually realized that I was getting a good enough idea of what was going on with the edge as I went along and at that point I too stopped using that particular system. But if it's working don't stop!

Pushing vs cutting under the water is a useful indicator that you've done about as much as can be done with that particular hone. Once the water starts riding up the blade instead of running ahead of it, consider moving on.

It's also worth remembering this ain't rocket science. :) Take your time, be gentle, be aware of what's happening between the blade and the hone, and in time it will start coming together. :)

Yes I meant swarf. Touchup could be a pasted strop which is the easiest. But if your gonna break out the hones, then break em out! I dont know if you have a pasted strop. If you do, then that will be the touchup you may need only. If not then the 8k then 12k would be what I would do. The amount of laps x strokes etc would remove very little metal. And with an average human lifespan of 80 years you dont have to worry about killing the razor.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

Yes I meant swarf. Touchup could be a pasted strop which is the easiest. But if your gonna break out the hones, then break em out! I dont know if you have a pasted strop. If you do, then that will be the touchup you may need only. If not then the 8k then 12k would be what I would do. The amount of laps x strokes etc would remove very little metal. And with an average human lifespan of 80 years you dont have to worry about killing the razor.

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This is one of the things I love about this stuff - there are many paths to the mountaintop, and plenty of scope for messing around and finding out what works for you. :tu

I have never used a pasted strop and so that's not something that leaps to mind for me. But after a recent conversation over coffee with Badgister, I have some CrOx on order and will be playing around with it soon. So stay tuned... my answer may change the next time this question comes around. :)

Some little refreshes are nothing more than a few passes on crox or diamond spray before stroping and your good to go. Other times you have to hit some form of stone. There are many ways to do this but I think pyramid approaches work well even at this type of stage. When honing I used to do the 4/8 pyramid then do 8-10 polishing strokes on the 16K (in your case 12K- they are basically the same- maybe not on the microscope but in terms of how they feel on your face). Now I proceed from a 4/8 pyramid and then do a 8/16 pyramid. This principle works for times when you have to do a refresh but not really a honing- so to speak. So you might try a 5/5,3/3,1/3,1/5 pyramid with 8/12 before you hit the diamond spray, Zulu, CF, Escher, Jnat or whatever. The key thing, as we all know, is to make sure the mediums used are FLAT and that your strokes are light and true and find a pattern that works for you that is consistent.

So, if its a touch up. I first try the last thing I do before leather stroping- like crox on felt. If that doesn't cut it (pun intended) I then go to an 8/16 pyramid then final finisher then leather strop. I only do either of these things when I'm confident that my bevel is good across the entire edge. If I begin to doubt that I sometimes put a marker on the edge, take a couple of laps on a finishing stone and examine it under magnification to see that the entire edge was hit.

There are two things that can cause a frustrating evening; 1) Doing a refresh on something only to discover that it really needs a more concerted refresh or even a proper honing (or) 2) Doing a proper honing only to discover that the bevel needs to be reset. But, I would rather risk those things than unnecessarily removing too much metal. And, of course, I've done all those things before. I'm learning like all of us that you get a feel for these things and you become more efficient as you go and the dreaded overhoning can indeed be a thing of the past.

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Originally Posted by Cangooner

Yeah, a lot of it is just down to practice to develop feel, and once that happens you'll have a much better idea when to move up to the next hone.

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Recently I've made some progress in my honing. All along I kept asking others and of myself, what should I be looking for? What are the signs that things are going well or that I'm ready to move from one hone to the next? Most everyone will tell you to get a jewelers loup to check your edge during the process. But this little microscope really helped to really understand what was happening at each stage. I had a x100 scope but the x200 really give you an up close view of what is going on. Its a whopping $4 so give one a shot.

Amazon.com: Handheld Hand Held LED Lighted 160X-200X Magnification Zoom Lens Pocket Microscope Magnifier Magnifying Loupe: Office Products

I have a nice jeweler's loupe, a microscope, lighted magnifying glass- I know it's ridiculous. But I can tell more about what is going on with an edge but its feel on a hone and especially during a shave than I can by looking at the edge. I'm just not very good at judging what an edge is doing by seeing it under magnification. Usually when pictures of this are posted on this forum I can't tell much of a difference to the comparative photographs but many others can. So, some of us rely more on feel when others rely more on sight I guess.

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Originally Posted by 1holegrouper

I have a nice jeweler's loupe, a microscope, lighted magnifying glass- I know it's ridiculous. But I can tell more about what is going on with an edge but its feel on a hone and especially during a shave than I can by looking at the edge. I'm just not very good at judging what an edge is doing by seeing it under magnification. Usually when pictures of this are posted on this forum I can't tell much of a difference to the comparative photographs but many others can. So, some of us rely more on feel when others rely more on sight I guess.

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I was the same way and probably still would be looking at someone else's pics. But go ahead and set a bevel with a razor, then look closely at the scratch patterns under 200x magnification. Make a mental note of what they look like. Take it your next hone and do circles/laps until the scratch patterns have been completely replaced by the new grit. Make another mental note of how it looks. Then take it to the next stone (8k?) and do the same until the scratches are almost completely gone. Watching what is happening between each grit really helped me see the progress. But at 100x, the difference between 1k and 4k was negligible. But at 200x, I can see the difference in the patterns as the stone is doing its job. Also, at 200x I can see how rough the cutting edge is after 1k and 4k. I can literally see little spikes and protrusions. Then after 8k, its looking good. Also, if you have a razor the was honed by a pro, look closely at it under 200x. Then look at the one that may be giving you trouble. You'll probably see some things that separate them quite readily. I suppose this will be a case of YMMV but it really helped me understand what I was looking for between grits/stones. For once I could actually see things falling into place. I find the visual inspection more telling than say the thumb pad test - which I've never been able to determine anything from.

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Originally Posted by OCDshaver

I was the same way and probably still would be looking at someone else's pics. But go ahead and set a bevel with a razor, then look closely at the scratch patterns under 200x magnification. Make a mental note of what they look like. Take it your next hone and do circles/laps until the scratch patterns have been completely replaced by the new grit. Make another mental note of how it looks. Then take it to the next stone (8k?) and do the same until the scratches are almost completely gone. Watching what is happening between each grit really helped me see the progress. But at 100x, the difference between 1k and 4k was negligible. But at 200x, I can see the difference in the patterns as the stone is doing its job. Also, at 200x I can see how rough the cutting edge is after 1k and 4k. I can literally see little spikes and protrusions. Then after 8k, its looking good. Also, if you have a razor the was honed by a pro, look closely at it under 200x. Then look at the one that may be giving you trouble. You'll probably see some things that separate them quite readily. I suppose this will be a case of YMMV but it really helped me understand what I was looking for between grits/stones. For once I could actually see things falling into place. I find the visual inspection more telling than say the thumb pad test - which I've never been able to determine anything from.

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I'll try the 200X. I usually never went past 90X

For the money involved, you can't go wrong.

I have a loupe I was using ... Looking for chips etc and it's working out ok.. But for 4.00 ill try that..

A ton of this is practice, and knowing the Stones/Hones and how each reacts with the steel...

If I am refreshing a razor, I honestly have never been one for "Touching up" on pastes, they work fine, but I own some rocks I spent serious $$$ on so I am going to use them :)

Once I take out the stones then I don't want to be messing around with guess work, so I use what I named "Drop Two and Go" this doesn't have to only mean drop two actual grit steps ie: from 12 down to 10 or 8 it could also mean "Drop" to a light slurty on the Escher and then go to clear water..

Basically you drop down to your last two steps and go (Leather and Linen strops not included) say your honing was 1,5,10 Chosera and then a Coticule finisher

Myself I use a Light slurry ----> Clear water finish on my Coticule so dropping Two here would be to a light slurry

Take the last razor I just tweaked up, it was originally done on the Shapton 1,2,4,6,8,16,30 so I dropped to the 16 and then moved to the 30

I can't say if it is right or wrong I just know it works 100% of the time for me, I never have had to backtrack or re-do a razor, this could be the system, or it could be that I only use it on my personal razors, which are babied to death :p


Basically everything I just typed is total BS, and it still comes down to you putting in the time to figure out what works for you, or YMMV heheheh

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

A ton of this is practice, and knowing the Stones/Hones and how each reacts with the steel...

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Basically everything I just typed is total BS, and it still comes down to you putting in the time to figure out what works for you, or YMMV heheheh

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I agree. It's hard to put numbers on this, What grit, How many strokes etc...My razor needing a touch up may be completely different than yours.

A NOS Livi needing a touch up is very different than a Dovo for instance.

You want to do as little as it takes to get it shaving nice and smooth. I only use a loupe, I don't have a microscope, and really don't need one, but they are nice to have.

My first line of defense is an Escher. If the razor is pulling and tugging, I'll make a slurry, do about two dilutions, and finish on water. This works for me 99% of the time.

A Coticule would work too.

Can I make a slurry on a nainwa 12 k if u have a razor that u bought shave ready and needs a touch up I guess I would goto my 12 k first

Another thing you can try if you're learning on your own, without the benefit of a local mentor is very simple experimentation...
When you think you have finished with your 4K, cut a few arm hairs - note any resistance and how the hair reacts to the blade. Do 10 more strokes and cut a few more hairs - see if there's any difference. When there is no more improvement, you're ready to move up.
Do the same with your 8k.

With careful observation of how the edge cuts, and practice with the same drill on other razors, you'll soon get a feel for an edge that's ready to move up and one that isn't.

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Originally Posted by OCDshaver

For the money involved, you can't go wrong.

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Ya, cause you know we are all saving so much $$$ since we no longer buy disposable razors. hehe