I would only use the diamond pasted side if it's tugging.
I do 30 linen and 50 leather laps everytime before I shave and 10 laps of each after the shave to dry the blade
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Not I :) I don't do final words :p
The only real factor of HHT is the word Calibration, it also never ever can give an indication of how Smooth the shave is going to be, it only can indicate Sharpness...
Each test really has to be calibrated by the guy honing the razor, I remember at the 2009 NC meet we all thought the AHT was pretty much dead to nuts and then we found a guy there whose hair wouldn't pop at 12k :shrug:
I have or had the same set up as you, a paddle strop with one diamond paste side. At least on my paddle, the darker side was very smooth and soft. I exclusively used it for month. I thought it worked fine but finally purchased another hanging leather strop. I also converted my paddle strop with some of the bark tanned leather sold at Tanny or Woodcraft. Actually any good quality leather if fine. Anyway, the paddle strop with suede worked but I prefer something like latigo or split side (sort of like suede).
Just a quick update after finishing my second honing on the razor. Following the 2k results shown on my last pictures I followed with the Shapton 6k and finally the naniwa 12k. What I learned :
-Coming from the 2k, The shapton 6K first felt like grounded glass and sounded it too but after a few minutes this disappeared and the blade felt like freely sliding on the shapton. It even felt like the shapton was like a suction cup on the blade. I am guessing all these are positive indications.
-The 12k also felt very smooth. very little to no grinding on the blade. Also felt a smooth sliding with some suction.
The final blade bevel looked very nice and much more smooth under the loupe than my first honing attempt at the beginning of this thread. But the blade failed all tests including AHT. I do not use the TNT as a final test because it damages the blade. It looks like will do my 3rd attempt back down with the 2k again. The problem apparently is setting the bevel. The Light reflexion test was useless for checking the bevel. Since it passed. I don't do the TPT because last time i did a few hours later my thumb was sore and swollen. My finger skin is soft. I find none of the proposed test to check the bevel satisfactory methods. I am trying to think of my own test idea that may involve some vegetables.
That could be be grit contamination, a frail edge failing, or just large slurry particles. You mentioned an Atoma plate so grit contamination is unlikely if you carefully cleaned the razor between hones. I would try upto 3 sets of 20 strokes on the 6k before going lower. Less metal removal that way.
You are making good progress, keep at it.
Jonathan
thanks for the encouragement. I think it is likely large slurry particles (glass slurry ??) after lapping the shapton with the Atoma plate. It went away completely in a few minutes. I will do 3 x 20 on the 6k as you suggest before going lower.
Have you checked the spine - either with a known straight edge or testing for a slight rocking on either side when laid on the hone?
One other thing I forgot to mention from one of your earlier posts - honing (and stropping) need a certain speed to be effective - therefore your very slow movement will have no practical effect and, I suspect, will not help with muscle memory either as again you need to use a practical speed in order to build this properly.
The brush in my Avatar is a TI in horn. Well spotted ypu must have good eyesight.
You need to learn, and figure out the tests, and what works for you, reading that above tells me that you are flying blind, if you cannot positively without a doubt KNOW the bevel is set, then you are simply grinding away steel...
You very well could be setting and dulling the edge over and over again...
Ok. I am always doing the AHT and I also look at the blade with the lupe (i know that is no test for sharpness but i can see the eveness). I don't like the TNT there is something creepy about putting a razor edge on a thumb nail but i'll do it. Latest update this morning I went back down and did several lapping on the 6,000 the blade feels really nice on the honing stone and you would think it is ready but it does not cut a single hair on the skin. The only way is to pull hair from the skin and then it will (and still not well) cut it. I am trying to make a hypothesis what I could be doing wrong. Here is my current hypothesis : it's all happening on the 2000 (my lowest grit). Any pressure put on that stone sets a bevel that will not be changed by the other two stones. If the bevel was applied unequally along the edge then no amount of further honing will bring a sharp edge.
What I don't like now is I get a very nice feedback from the stones but blade fail all. First I thought I am getting there and need a few more lapping but it seems nothing changes. If I keep going without lapping the shapton the blade will eventually slide on it as if I was sliding two lubrificated glass plates against each other with no friction at all and with a suction effect. Yet it is not cutting nothing.
I am assuming you have watched the Honing Vids from Lynn and Myself???
If you are having issues still at the bevel set let's stop right there...
Forget every test out there,,,
Do 20 circles with medium pressure, then 20 circles light pressure per side just like Lynn and I show in the Vids.. Stop
Rinse the 2k
Do 20 light accurate X strokes on the 2k making sure the water wave in front of the edge is even along the entire edge.... Stop
Rinse the 2k
Do 5 absolutely as light as possible X strokes like we show at the end of many of the Vids ... Stop
Strop 50 laps on Leather
Test shave... = http://straightrazorpalace.com/video...-test-vid.html
If that test shave doesn't cut hair then you really have some issues
You gave gotten much good advice from this thread, Sunsweet. Perseverance and a decent set of hones will help you achieve a great shaving edge. Beware of the HFT. [hanging fingernail test]
Jerry
____
I had watched Lynn's previously but not yours so I just have now (all parts 1,2,3). I watched it twice and while honing. That video was very very helpful, thanks for that. Especially for :
- learning the X strokes heel first that you use.
- listening to the sound of your edge on the hone and trying to get the same motion and sound.
- Getting a good idea of how much pressure to use.
- guiding the edge.
- etc...
I tried TNT. my razor's blunt edge was slicing into my nail very easily so instead of going down to 2k, I thought I would try the whole sequence that you are prescribing above ^ on the 6k instead. At least I would not remove as much metal. After doing the circles the edge came alive and was cutting arm hair at the stem. Then I did the 20 light accurate X strokes and the 5 absolutely light X strokes. The edge was not poping hair but more hair was being cut. I needed to shave today. So I went to the 12k to polish and finish. I used a slurry. going trough that felt like sliding on grease. I diluted by washing the blade as I went. Stropped on the suede paddle and finally headed to the bathroom for a shave. It was a very different feeling from what this this blade gave me when it was new. Did not pass shave test. This edge was not going to shave me properly. Left me with disappointing shadow patches and a poor results but no skin cuts. Also it felt the blade was not giving me as much feedback on my skin as it used to.
I want to step back momentarily and say I had some expectations when I got into straight shaving. One was getting a better shave than with a commercial razor, and two not having to rely on external services and honing the stone myself. My straight razor was fine when new but now it is no better than a weeks old commercial razor blade. I am probably hitting a low but I am quite disappointed at the whole thing requiring so many stones of all kinds which is a fairly big additional investment to the razor itself and getting poor results. If I had to choose again I may not get into straight razor shaving again. I initially misjusged the investment that was required to hone the blade and that it would be so hard to do. Again if I have to use a honing service it is no longer what draws me to straight razor in the first place. I may need to shave with commercial blades while learning to hone.
The best thing you could do is find a honer local to you and see if they would give you a lesson or two, I did that and it was the best thing I ever did honing wise. I learned more in two hours in person that I would have in six months watching videos or trying to do it solo. Most people on here who hone would gladly help you out
I do not think you need a whole arsenal of stones to keep a straight shaving sharp for a long period of time. If you don't let the blade deteriorate too far or chip it then a 12K or similar finishing stone should be all that is needed for a very long time. Having an arsenal of stones comes in handy when you are restoring old straights as a hobby. Honing is not rocket science but a learned skill that takes time to develop. Like any learned skill set there will be the inevitable failures from which to learn and profit from.
You are not stuck to using a honing service forever, I wasn't, but at the start getting it rehoned professionally and then learning to maintain the edge with a finishing hone might be the way to go. Once you are confident and proficient at maintaining the edge you can get a cheap 20 dollar straight to bring back to life from resetting the bevel and up the progression. That will also give you a back up straight in case you drop or otherwise mess up the blade. Yes, I have dropped a straight and buggered up the blade.
Anyway, take a breather from trying to learn honing and let the frustration subside. Consider your options and what you want to do.
Bob
As far as videos go this one really helped me a lot for the way I hone
http://youtu.be/eCCt4TSmoCo
http://youtu.be/da42vkYXmSE
Learning to hone was why I got a DE. If you want an amazing shave while working on honing, don't go get a cartridge razor...idk about you but they give me a terrible shave that's full of irritation...plus they cost too much.
I recommend getting an Edwin Jagger DE if you feel you need a fall back. They cost $35 and will give you an amazingly smooth shave, not to mention new blades cost way less. Paired with an iridium blade....WOW is all I can say ;)
Yes i needed a fall back razor because SR honing turned out to be much more tricky than I had expected even with a lot of patience. That said I by no mean am interested in honing as an activity of itself. Actually to me this is the price to pay to be able to shave with a straight. Can't say I enjoy that.
I agree cartrige multi-edges razors are bad. They always give much more irritation than a straight. The skin feels bad. But seems like I am getting a hang on honing now...
Glen, I wanted to thank u for the video where you coach a beginner honing for the first time. That video filled some important gaps that I had missed in your solo videos because you didn't focus on anything that was second nature to you. But the beginner making all the mistakes, I got several points I missed. So here are the things, that were missing in what people were telling me :
- rincing the blade with water and wiping it clean of slurry every 5 X patterns constantly
- changing the tape when you move from the bevel setting stone to the next stone (and between that one and the polishing stone)
- use the bevel stone first with slurry, then immerse it in water, rince well, slide finger across wet surface to remove debris and use it without slurry before moving up.
- The X patterns means really sliding the blade all the way with <1 inch left at the toe at the end of the hand movement. Not doing that correctly I was neglecting the edge before the toe.
-at the end of lapping get the side edges of the stones with a 45 degree angle
What you guys did say but needed more clarification:
- really make sure your X patterns allow all parts of the edge to move the water at least during some portion of your stroke. Not all blades geometry can move the water all along the edge at the same time.
Anyway so I did all this, stroped and got a better shave than the razor cartridges I have been using. It was nice to feel a much longer blade again on the skin and gosh I hate the multi-edge idea it really is causing skin irritation.
The SR was good enough so that it could shave me from it own weight (close to zero pressure). It was a nice shave. Still some very minor skin damage. But no irritation. But big improvement from last time. Still a lot of progress possible.
Most people, me included, who read my recent post would not have expected that I post on this forum again after my 1 year debacle with straight razors. That was correct until today, something happened. Major would be a huge understatement. But let me first say that all my posting have been genuine and so was my patience and efforts to learn and discipline myself to improve my technique after months of mediocre and poor honing results. Responses to my last "goodbye" post showed who are the gentlemen on this forum and who are the sarcastic, snotty weaklings. Anyways, I had not entirely given up and today things have changed. Something so absolutely perturbating was revealed that it explains why I could never get a sharp razor at all. In fact my technique could have been supreme all my honing was all in vain because of one thing that made it impossible. I discovered what it is. And for the gentlemen on this forum (you will recognize yourself) I decided to come back and let them know... But not before letting you guess at what it is that was wrong... Technique had nothing to do with it and because of yours and my thinking that it was a technique issue, I must have developped incredible skills by now from all fine and superfine adjustments I made and I can feel each stone to such a level of feedback that maybe I would not have acquired without my predicament.
So guys guess what it was... It is absolutely stunning !
you can review this entire thread to find the answer.
You never lapped your hones?
No, I have an Atoma diamond #1200 lapping stone. My hones were lapped each time. Good first guess though.
You were polishing a turd. That's why.
Don't give up. An don't jump grits until your bevel is doing what it's supposed to: cut hair
I think a Thier Issard special collection new razor is not a turd. Wrong guess.
Your advice about not skipping grits is valuable but i didn't skip. My "honed" razor never passed the hanging hair test. keep guessing.
Razor was defective and was replaced by the factory.
Let me try, you finally sent that Limited Edition Thiers Issard razor out to be honed by an experienced, professional honemeister?
No, the razor was not defective alas.
I can see your sarcasm but no, if I were to hone a razor now that i found what the major issue was it would probably cut a hair in two if that hair was let to free fall on the edge. Well maybe not, but you get the idea.
Yup, That what I meant. You are going all over the grits, but you should have stuck at +- 1k level until bevel is set then polish and refine. You mention being almost there then moving on. There is a huge difference between there and almost there . If you move on to refining grits before you have a completed bevel you are polishing something that wasn't ready to be polished in the first place.
Polishing a turd is a pretty well known term in these parts... Jut sayin'.....
OK - second guess for me!
I guess, that you still have completely no idea what to do to hone your razor that will never leave your hands, and that you're making people guess to fish out some more ideas from the experts here, to figure out why you have no idea what you're doing??
Sheesh, it's cold here and I've been feeling a bit snotty lately, must be the weather....only -5 though???
Now, now Pfrank don't be one of them snotty weaklings, let the gentleman have a bit o fun. Besides, having frozen snot is no fun eh.
Bob
Thanks Bob, but you probably haven't read what I wrote but there are no mistakes here. This is my snotty face and its fate is in my hands. Only I will blow it and it will never be sent to a doctors office. Do you hear me? Again, my choice!! You are like a dog to me!!!
Don't get me wrong, it certainly is your face and you may do with it what you want. I am sorry I had the temerity to suggest otherwise. May I now return to the corner and take my place facing the wall as penance?
Bob
You discovered that the spine is the wide bit?
Please tell us!
Michael
I must say (as respectfully as possible) that as I read through this thread tonight I noticed a couple things. First, that you asked for advice (and got it) but only did what you thought was right and IMO were very rude to people trying to help you out. For example Glen gave you great advice and you took part of it and added in your own two cents and did it your way anyway. I am new here and don't know much but I have lived long enough to know when people are being stubborn and rude and you Sunsweet have been both. Now you are bating good people and playing games? I for one do not want to know what you found out because you obviously haven't 'found' the big lesson here. Humility.
You are commenting on posts I made nearly a year ago. That discussion is obsolete. I have solidly mastered the technique since. It went from not sharp at all, to outstandingly sharp. My technique was there all along. The only reason for my current postings is to let you guys know what you had missed and I had missed when I made that thread one year ago that prevented me from ever getting that ideally sharp edge ! It was immediate. No need to mention 101 of honing, setting a bevel with the lower grit before polishing with the higher ones. I don't give a damn ab semantics. Maybe I should start teaching honing myself because I had it all along, if it had not been for that one thing, it actually made me practise much more than needed to master this.
Good night and best of luck.
"You are commenting on posts I made nearly a year ago. That discussion is obsolete. I have solidly mastered the technique since."
A year ago? You just joined the forum in July and started this thread when you joined. AND now you are a 'Master'?
"Maybe I should start teaching honing myself because I had it all along, if it had not been for that one thing, it actually made me practise much more than needed to master this."
Good idea. Make some YouTube vids and we can all watch them...
I think Steel says it all: Good night...and Good Luck!
WP34