Tsugeru's Kanetaka

This is Tsugeru's Kanetaka size 1 and 2. I'll provide review later.

Specs:
Size 1
Blade size: 18mm ( 11/16 )
Blade length: 45mm
Spine width: 5mm
Total length: 155mm
Point: Oblique.
Handle: Tosuke blue grip
Storage: Comes with green box and oxidation paper

Size 2
Blade size: 21mm ( 14/16 )
Blade length: 50mm ( 49mm )
Spine width: 5mm
Total length: 167mm
Point: Oblique.
Handle: Tosuke blue grip
Storage: Comes with green box and oxidation paper

http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/a..._SPM_A0169.jpg

http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/a..._SPM_A0170.jpg

http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/a..._SPM_A0171.jpg

http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/a..._SPM_A0173.jpg

http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/a..._SPM_A0174.jpg

http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/a..._SPM_A0176.jpg

http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/a..._SPM_A0177.jpg

More here:
Size 1
Size 2

If you guys can confirm this I greatly appreciate it

Top kanji: Munekou Tsuki.

Centre kanji: Touroku shouhyou ( Trademark )

Rest of kanji: Kanetaka Zou ( or tsukuri ) ( Kanetaka made )

I never liked the rubber grip. We'll see how it is during shave. Any of you guys try remove yours or know anyone who successfully has? I think it detracts from its overall beauty. Plus, there's chance of water seeping into handle. Thanks

Great blades, waiting for your shaving experience!!

Those are nice. Please let us know how they shave. I would also like to know how to remove those rubber grips, as I have several I would like to do away with.

wow !!

Sired8, you are really buying all razor i am lurking on, will look for your review for sure !!

So now u have the Kanetake and the Kanetaka !!!

congrats !

Craftsmanship:
Since majority of SR shavers have the legendary Iwasaki I'll compare it to that along with others.

The stamps aren't legible. It's understandable overtime stamps, washes or even etchings fade but this is brand new or at least sold as such.

The cross-section is interesting. While the Size 2 is canted in way Iwasaki is, the Size 1 on the other hand isn't as aggressive. It more closely resembles that of Norikazu's canting. The Livi spiked higher elevation.

The blackened portion's ( carbon remnants as I recall ), is not present along the spine or shoulder of the blade. Instead, it's dispersed along handles.

http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/a..._SPM_A0182.jpg

http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/a..._SPM_A0183.jpg

Instead you are treated to mirror finish on the shoulder ( hakata ). It's more subdued with Size 1 for it looks more like brushed mirror finish if that makes sense.

The notch on the omote ( front side/non-stamped ) is brushed horizontally whereas it runs vertically with Iwasaki and Livi-diagonally with Norikazu's.
It's also accentuated and longer compared to both Iwasaki and Livi.

One thing to note about these razors is on front side of each just above the cutting edge ( kireba ) is faint watermark of some kind. It runs 1mm on Size 1 and 2mm on Size 2. I wouldn't necessarily call this a hamon as I'm no expert in field.

Like the Iwasaki, these are muted at the toe ( hasaki ) with slant whereas it's rounded more with Livi and pointed with Norikazu.

I was a little dismayed by the fissures present on these. Size 1 is slight but it's there around the waist ( katanagoshi ) on ura ( stamped side ) and along shoulder of front side ( omote ).
Size 2 is a doozy. It's evidently across the blade on ura ( back/stamped side ). Further, it's also on the omote but it's slight dot at centre of the watermark.

Having re-checked the Japanese Straights thread. I discovered some razors had fissures as well. But these are minuscule and don't give the impression of creating a gaping hole.

I took the liberty of removing the blue grips. It was easier on Size 1 and quite a feat for Size 2. I'm glad these weren't glued as I didn't want to resort to cutting them. I have no intention of using them but for keepsake.
To further devalue this magnificent work of art, I discover patina on both sides of the handles. They appear more like pitting.

Balance:
Like your typical Japanese razor it's nice and light. Maneuvering around is simple task. Size 1 is lighter than Kanetake. Size 2 given it's size, is heavier than both Iwasaki and Livi ATS34. However, between these two it's difficult to determine which is heavier.

Shave:
Having shaved with Iwasaki, Livi, and Norikazu's Kanetake I wasn't the least bit surprised when it mirrored the performance of Iwasaki and Norikazu. Thanks to hard water disagreeing with the cream, the lather and cushioning was poor. Perhaps I should have employed Alraz's the Atom Bomb for maximum efficiency. That said, my initial test shave was comparable to other test shaves I've done with both Iwasaki and Norikazu.

Considering this is my first Size 2 and one of largest Japanese razor to date, I didn't have any difficulty maneuvering the blade around. Its Western Style counterpart 6/8 Yaichi on the hand, proved to be quite tricky to say the least.

Collectability:
I don't know enough about the blacksmith. It's not mass produced to my knowledge as I haven't seen these anywhere else. This is indeed keeper in spite of its shortcomings. I just can't stand the bloody fissure. If only it didn't negate its graceful design.

Price:
I got it so price is irrelevant.

Overall:
Design is impressive-not nearly as dashing as Iwasaki but it holds its own. The shave was as expected but could be better-neither razors fault nor brush ( hard water conflict with cream ).
The craftsmanship was sub-par actually one of the worst I've seen.
While I haven't seen many of these, the fissure looks to be common problem. If it was minute size like Size 1 I could live with it. Sure the mirror finish on along the spine and shoulder of omote was nicely done in addition to faint watermark that runs along blade ( just above cutting edge ), but still does not compensate for the flaws. It's inexcusable. Generally, I'm not one to be picky but majority of buyers out there are. People expect more for less. I ascribe to just the opposite, you get what you pay for.

thanks a lot Sired8

i was just about to buy one of these Kanetaka myself, but couldn't decide to put the money on it, especially because of the fissures. And it is said that some people are looking for these fissures as they would for Hamon.

From what i understand of your review is that it's only blah-blah to cover-up what the fissures are really are : fissures in the steel.

Even though with those defects, i am still interested in buying one (well, you bought the last size 2 i think). It's just the "watermarks" near the edge that really scare me : i can't put that much money on a blade that may litteraly crumble.

i couldn't thank you enough Sired8 for your review, continue your good job, it's really useful.

No problem. Please don't misunderstand, I don't hate these razors. I don't want you to get wrong idea I'm blasting these. I have done so but I admit I want to keep them. In hindsight, I chose the wrong words and I humbly apologize.

Going back and having re-read the description:

Quote:

---

KANETAKA CUTLERY Co.--- Established as Japanese Razor blacksmith two hundred years ago, and Kanetaka has been making cutlery for traditional Kyoto Professional craftsmen, such as cooking chef, Kado (Japanese traditional flower arrangement), Paper hanger, Kimono Maker, and etc.

It is put together Jigane (softer steel) and Hagane (harder steel, white II steel) with right temperature as precisely. If it is put together higher than right temperature, we do not see the line of marks putting together two steels because of melting the two steels. Kanetaka razor is put together with the temperature as low as it can, so it is not totally melt two steels that is why we can see the welding lines on the front and back of the blade.

Some knife collectors seek those knives, which have welding lines or marks on purpose, because it is more possibility to weld right temperature. It means it might be sharper than one without welding marks or lines. The edge of the blade is high quality white II steel.

Shinogi (the front side of the center line) is also used white II steel on purpose, because Shinogi is very important to sharpen single bevel edge accurately. When the front side is sharpened, Shinogi and blade edge are attach on whetstone, so if Shinogi is Jigane (softer steel), it is easier to sharpen and change the original angle and line. Using Hagane (harder steel) for Shinogi is ideal way to more accurate sharpening. Of course, the front and back side of the blade has deep cone cave to make easier to sharpening. The spine side and the front side of spine side are beautiful mirror finished.

The handle covered Tosuke rubbler grip on it.



The razor is called �gNichogake�h as Kanetaka Japanese razor which means logner version blade for Kanetaka.

The blade length: 50mm(2 inch). The total length of the razor: 165mm (6 1/2 inch) The backside of the thickest part of the blade: 4.5mm (3/16�h) The total weight of the knife: 1.7oz.

---

The only difference, between the Size 1 & 2 is the highlighted text. I don't understand it. I've seen a couple Iwasaki's on the Japanese straights thread with these "lines." Just not excessive as the Size 2. Perhaps one of forgers might be able to shed some light on this. I recall Mike Blue taking about White Steel at some point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SiRed8

No problem. Please don't misunderstand, I don't hate these razors. I don't want you to get wrong idea I'm blasting these. I have done so but I admit I want to keep them. In hindsight, I chose the wrong words and I humbly apologize.

Going back and having re-read the description:



The only difference, between the Size 1 & 2 is the highlighted text. I don't understand it. I've seen a couple Iwasaki's on the Japanese straights thread with these "lines." Just not excessive as the Size 2. Perhaps one of forgers might be able to shed some light on this. I recall Mike Blue taking about White Steel at some point.

---

You are right SiRed8

same for me, even with those "defects", i still desire them. I don't considere you bashing them, u just describe the razor you bought and asking yourself the same questions i would.

It's why i am thanking you, cuz i don't have the opportunity to buy them myself (and one reason for that is i am not sure about those lines/stains near the edge) So following your reviews help me a lot.

I hope some steel pro will come and give out his opinion.

all we want is to understand better this Kanetaka

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LesPoils

You are right SiRed8

same for me, even with those "defects", i still desire them. I don't considere you bashing them, u just describe the razor you bought and asking yourself the same questions i would.

It's why i am thanking you, cuz i don't have the opportunity to buy them myself (and one reason for that is i am not sure about those lines/stains near the edge) So following your reviews help me a lot.

I hope some steel pro will come and give out his opinion.

all we want is to understand better this Kanetaka

---

Indeed. I may not be expert in field of razors or knives but one thing's for sure, I've yet to see someone who seek razors or knives with these fissures. I'm not even aware of any chef to have used a knife with that characteristic. Then again, the vendor did say that "knife collectors" in fact seek them. It makes perfect sense if it's vintage item but this is brand new item we're talking about.

The steel would perhaps surpass several future generations. It's just strange characteristic to have on razor that's all.

After much careful and further inspection I've come to realization that this was done purposely by Tsugeru.

Fenriswolf's Tosuke here and here as well as Iwasaki-even on the highly sought after Tamahagane here! There's more here. Both Tosuke and Iwasaki have these welded lines-what I initially called fissure. However neither my Iwasaki's have the lines present.

Further, here is teethbrush razors especially the last picture.

Mike Blue informs him:

Teethbrush: Looking at these both sets of pictures carefully...you can see the welding lines where a piece of high carbon steel has been welded to a lesser steel. The square corner of the high carbon piece even shows up on the second razor. They would not likely do that with tamahagane, if they could get some away from a swordsmith. The toolmaker's tradition dictates a high carbon steel welded to wrought iron or mild steel generally. Where it can be deceptive to the buyer is that wrought iron has a grain pattern that can look like pattern welding. You would need to etch these blades to really know for sure. I think enough evidence is present to not have to do that.

And what Dr. Old_School said...

OLD_SCHOOL further adds:

If I may make a slight correction here, Tamahagane razors are made in the same manner, the welding line is quite visible, including ones made by the late Iwasaki Kousuke, father of the (apparent) late Shigeyoshi.
As I understand it (though could be misinformed) they are made this way to cut down costs.

Well there you have it. Ignorance is bliss. As mentioned prior I know nothing.

One can simply ask why not edit the post of the review? Simple, I'm not about making myself look good. I amended after the fact because I made a grave oversight to the blade smith's artistic abilities.

My main concern is not so about the "fissure" at the point where the two steels melt together, but rather about the "stains" or "watermarks" (in that case i am wondering what water had caused those marks!) we can see near the edge on the omote side.

Of course, any gap or fissure at the point where two steels meet may be looked at suspicious, i have seen a lot on used kamisori, and obviously it's not something you want, but that can be tolerated easily if it doesn't make it unsuitable for shaving or honing.

But those lines near the edge on the omote side are realy bothering me. Are they only watermarks, and it that case, how water could have done so. Is it during long perios storage, humidity. In the pictures you posted, SiRed8, we don't see it so clearly, though it is visible, on the vendor site's pictures it is make more obvious. And it what made me stop from buying one of them. In any case, are those watermarks a problem or not ? :confused:

Beside of that, i am really interested about those Kanetaka razors, as i clarified with the vendor, they are really different from Kanetake made by Takahashi Norikazu.
Try to get it, those who forge kamisori can be counted with few fingers, and within that, u find Kanetake and Kanetaka. Knowing what Kanetake means (please help me inserting the link to the thread about the meaning of Kanetake name -made by O_S), i really wonder what Kanetaka means. Guess i should Pm O_S about that.

again, i want to say i am really thankful to SiRed8 to have bought those razors and share his experience, and to anywho finding interest in this thread :put a smiley here: !!

Kanetake is Takahashi Norikazu's registered name. His razors are in fact modeled after Tsurayuki's.
More here

OLD_SCHOOL's interview with Takahashi Norikazu

What ever you do, I implore you, DO NOT buy these. You might want to contact O_S to see if he has any pre-owned razors. He puts them up from time to time.

I spoke with a highly reputable forger who said that if his razor looked like mine, he would've trashed it to say the least.

With regards to the watermark, he said that there are ways to make steel look like wootz by playing heat treating.
If you cycle steel at rather low temperatures many time the result is different alloys that separate and show as banding. This is not good for the edge and its overall strength. Contrary to what vendor said:

Some knife collectors seek those knives, which have welding lines or marks on purpose, because it is more possibility to weld right temperature. It means it might be sharper than one without welding marks or lines. The edge of the blade is high quality white II steel."
All Kanetaka razors have some welding lines, but it is not stress fractures.

Do you want a razor that look very nice but not sharp, or looking not so good but it is very sharp?

The razors are flawed. They shave great but flawed. You might as well save up and wait for Norikazu to make Tamahagane. At least you're familiar with his work

BTW, here's another Kanetaka falsely advertised as Tosuke

Compare the kanji to this:
http://i972.photobucket.com/albums/a..._SPM_A0174.jpg

SiRed8 you are very clever

thanks for making the link between the razor on ebay and the Kanetaka and for warning us. ---

It seems that some guys are trying to make a few bucks using the japanese straights enthousiats, better to stick to well-known forgers. Iwasaki and Kanetake are really worthy.

on the other side, Tosuke and Kanetaka are making more problem. Tosuke cuz so many razors are branded as Tosuke, and Kanetaka seem to be a real joke now. we have on ebay a "Tosuke" that reveals to be a Kanetaka in the end....see the problems ?!)

I know i am mixing everybody with the names, so check the spelling carefully:argue:

Awesome review and additional information added by all. From my experiences, there is no way I would buy a japanese razor from anyone other than the guys on this board who are able to supply them - ebay is full of dodgy fakes and "seconds" (some that are really well done, but still not as advertised). Any newcomers to these fantastic razors would do well to seek them out here - you will not be disappointed.

I am a little bit confused now.

By 'forger" do you mean one who makes fakes or a blade smith, one who works at a forge?


The issue with the weld flaws imho is not a great problem. Sometimes it just happens. If they are extremely bad it could devalue the razor some, but merely being conspicuous is not enough to say it was poorly done. even at that there is hardly concern that it may affect the overall quality of the edge. Here's a little bit on a similar issue: Japanese Woodworking Forums • View topic - Cracks/fissures in iron?

Regarding the low temp cycles, this is, as far as I know, quite a regular practice for Jp tool smiths. It works just like normalizing. Alloy banding would appear something like hada, not hamon-like at all. If it looks like hamon it may be an effect from using clay coating in the heat treat.

the patina on the tang, again I do not see this as a problem -red rust; yes, that is a problem. Some forge scars or patina from use are not going to hurt anything. In some ways, if from forging, it is not as good, as clean as what Iwasaki does. Iwaskski razors that i have seen are quite immaculate overall. Who else does 'em that nice?

You right Kevin, "forger" could lead to misunderstanding, even in French, my spoken language.

a "forgeron" in french is the one who works in the "forge" where we heat metals.
But "to forge" has also the meaning of falsifying, making false copy.

I my previous post i only used "forger" to point at the man who works in a forge. I think SiRed8 used it the same way.
Is there a more specific word ?

well, u just told it : Blacksmith , or bladesmith !!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LesPoils

You right Kevin, "forger" could lead to misunderstanding, even in French, my spoken language.

a "forgeron" in french is the one who works in the "forge" where we heat metals.
But "to forge" has also the meaning of falsifying, making false copy.

I my previous post i only used "forger" to point at the man who works in a forge. I think SiRed8 used it the same way.
Is there a more specific word ?

---

kevint, thanks I meant to say blacksmith/bladesmith.

Now looking at bare handles, I wished I hadn't sanded them down. Stupid OCD

Well I rarely get them wet anyway and I typically oil them. I know that's little overkill but the oil should last for long time considering I don't have many razors.

the razor on ebay has been sold for 200$ (+shipping my friends!!)

false tosuke true Kanetaka

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LesPoils

the razor on ebay has been sold for 200$ (+shipping my friends!!)

false tosuke true Kanetaka

---

I'm glad you didn't get it. Once the buyer provides feedback to seller, I'll contact said buyer and link them to this thread. It's unfortunate there's no way of contacting the buyer due to their handle being hidden from general masses during a bidding.

Hi, I'm Matthias, and new to the forum.
I was looking for some info on making a straight razor, and i've found the SRP.
Now, I'm not an expert on straight razor issue, but i wouldn't buy this razor, because this weld line, is a failure, probably on a razor blade this is not a problem, because is a non stressed blade, on any other blade this become a great problem, i think that here the problem can be the rust that grow really rapidly on this line, it need to be oiled every time.
I've made some pattern welded blade, san-mai blade and when this line appear i know that something has gone wrong, sometime the failure is acceptable, sometime is a total failure.
Now i'm going to forge (the act to hit the steel between anvil and hammer, not to fake something :D ) a couple of razor blade, one japanese style and the other classical, i want to try it whit 52100, the ball bearing steel, and for the japanese one i have a pice of pattern welded steel, made from 1095 (old file) and 5160 (leaf spring of a truck).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tias

Hi, I'm Matthias, and new to the forum.
I was looking for some info on making a straight razor, and i've found the SRP.
Now, I'm not an expert on straight razor issue, but i wouldn't buy this razor, because this weld line, is a failure, probably on a razor blade this is not a problem, because is a non stressed blade, on any other blade this become a great problem, i think that here the problem can be the rust that grow really rapidly on this line, it need to be oiled every time.
I've made some pattern welded blade, san-mai blade and when this line appear i know that something has gone wrong, sometime the failure is acceptable, sometime is a total failure.
Now i'm going to forge (the act to hit the steel between anvil and hammer, not to fake something :D ) a couple of razor blade, one japanese style and the other classical, i want to try it whit 52100, the ball bearing steel, and for the japanese one i have a pice of pattern welded steel, made from 1095 (old file) and 5160 (leaf spring of a truck).

---

The Japanese have been making blades like this for longer than many Western Cultures have existed and rest assured there is nothing wrong with the blade and it will never rust at the junction.

Hello everyone!

My cousin is interested in buying this razor so I have a few questions that I want to ask. I already sent PM to the original poster of this thread (SiRed8) but it seems that he hasn't been on these forums for more than 6 months.

Anyways here we go.

1. Where did those of you, that own this razor, buy it? Which store that you know is the most reliable or has it in stock or ships it faster than others?

2. Which hones are the best for this particular razor (if you could name the exact brands and dimensions it would be really helpful).

3. Which strops are the best for stropping these razors, in case that there are some better than the others?

4. Which honing paste would you recommend for honing these particular razors? Do you also use any stropping paste or anything similar at stropping?

I hope that my questions make sense, english is not my native language so some of these technical words might have not been used the right way.

Thank you for your answers in advance!