Antique Gartian razor question

Sorry for the long story, but this is my first post and I'd like some input from the SRP family.

Unfortunately for me I don't spend as much time as I'd like on my razor hobby, especially studying up on historical facts regarding obscure antique razors. The other day I got on eBay during lunch and came across this old looking Gratian and thought it was interesting, so like most of my eBay bling I bid on it... roughly the price of a meal at Geronimo's in Santa Fe... and ignored it (It's my psychiatrists idea to help break me of the eBay/SR addiction I regret). Darn if I didn't win the bid and now I am dealing with the detective instinct to find out how old this thing really is and if it is a legitimate Gratian because some day I may want to sell it, but I can't bring myself to scam someone by representing it as an antique from late 1700's to early 1800's when I don't know for sure. The "Gratian" stamp on the tang compares favorably to other photos I have of a much newer looking 1830's Gratian, and the blade style & shape looks similar to mass produced European blade styles of the 1770's I've seen in photos from the Victoria & Albert Museum in London.

A post from "Martin 103" last year about George Washington's Gratian was fascinating. Washington was wealthy and I'm sure he had several razors, and I don't believe in any way it could be one of his, but having this identified as a real Gratian around 200 years old would be nice to know. I know photos have a limited value in really dating this thing; I at least want you to see what I'm talking about.

For all I know a member of SRP listed this razor and knows more. If I'm talking about *you* please send me a private message and we'll chat. Otherwise, I'd like your opinions or advice before I start spending the time and $ to run this to ground with professionals. Hey, no rush here.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. BTW, what's the oldest razor in your pile?

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Nice find! I dont see any reason as to why it would not be a real "Gratian" razor, the scales are definately not original but are interesting for sure.
By the way the mark "Gratian" belongs to Jonathan Hall, China Square, Sheffield, England, 1795- 1835 plus or minus a few.
Originally the scales were probably horn with some embelishment of some sort, large domed washers.

Im thinking by the look of the razor this would be an early one for sure. Enjoy!

Attachment 250711Interesting on the thought that those are not original scales. They are exactly like mine.

it was very common for the frugal (and they were ALL frugal back then) man to replace broken horn with a piece of straight wood. No shaping it, no giving it a wedge. Just a quick, and functioning handle. They are not original scales, but they might STILL be 180 years old!

What a great Survivor and cool story!! Welcome to SRP!! :)

Does anyone have advice on honing these old blades? I did mine last night and with the extreme smile it was the hardest hone job I have ever tried. It also had several shallow nicks so I had to remove a little more metal and it really developed a wire edge. I had to strop it on my stickiest strop for 100 or more passes before it slicked up. It really shaved well after all the work though. I felt like I could have done a better job on the hone and saved some time and work.

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Originally Posted by TimothyJames

Does anyone have advice on honing these old blades? I did mine last night and with the extreme smile it was the hardest hone job I have ever tried. It also had several shallow nicks so I had to remove a little more metal and it really developed a wire edge. I had to strop it on my stickiest strop for 100 or more passes before it slicked up. It really shaved well after all the work though. I felt like I could have done a better job on the hone and saved some time and work.

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Your razor looks difficult to hone. If you are not an experienced honer, and you managed to bring it to shave ready, pat yourself on the back for a job well done.
Tape on the spine for sure, and working with the high and heavy heel is not so straight forward. If you feel it could be better honed, send it to a pro with plenty of experience with this particular style razor.

Well, I did get it to where it shaves really well. I've used curved knives for wood carving for several decades so I have some feel following the bevel around an arc but it is not easy to do. Focus and picking up a patient rhythm. It is hard to tell sometimes if the edge doesn't feel sharp because it isn't or if it has a wire edge. I have some optics to help but I rely on my thumbnail more than anything. I'd be interested in any advice.

Thanks for your ideas.

Wow, it must be fun shaving with a razor that old. I have my grandpa's razor tucked away but never finished getting it shave ready.

Yes Ken, it is neat thinking that this razor may be in it's 3rd century of shaving faces.... Get that old razor you have ready and give it a ride. Band-Aids are cheap and most scars fade with time.

Magpie, I did tape the back during the heavy honing, I used a very thin Teflon coated tape so it did not increase the adhesion to the stone surface. I probably should have left the tape on it throughout because taking it off changed the bevel half way through...Not smart on my part.

I think I will. Once open a time I got it pretty well cleaned up & got past all the pits on the edge. Just need to set the bevel & go.

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Originally Posted by TimothyJames

Yes Ken, it is neat thinking that this razor may be in it's 3rd century of shaving faces.... Get that old razor you have ready and give it a ride. Band-Aids are cheap and most scars fade with time.

Magpie, I did tape the back during the heavy honing, I used a very thin Teflon coated tape so it did not increase the adhesion to the stone surface. I probably should have left the tape on it throughout because taking it off changed the bevel half way through...Not smart on my part.

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Tape of the normal variety (standard electric tape) is a much better choice than teflon tape. The "adhesion" to the stone is very minimal, and if you have a wide bevel, it can actually lesson that, as it will raise the blade so less steel is in contact. If you are raising a wire edge while honing, you are applying too much pressure. Dont treat razors like knives when it comes to honing! On a good blade, a single piece of tape, will be enough to set a bevel. on a blade with chips, I have replaced the tape as much as a dozen times before bevel set. Always use a fresh piece of tape for each "set" Fresh piece for the next grit hone so to not risk a stray bit of grit from a courser stone getting in the mix. Eventually, those blades with no real transition from tang to heel begin to wear depressions at the join. Be kind and gentle with your honing so you dont bring about premature wear. Its lasted 200 years, let it last another 5 at least! :rofl2:

Sounds like good words, thank you

In the olden days razors were honed without tape. Why use tape on this razor?

I think in the olden days they were just tools to shave with. Now they are precious treasures of times long gone (at least to me they are). Taping protects the razor from excessive wear where it is not necessary as well as preserving the shape. It is a good idea to tape especially when honing out nicks or bringing a dull blade back to shaving sharpness. I think Magpi's advice (even his somewhat caustic humor) is well taken. I will tape her during all of her future hones and any additional oldies if I am fortunate enough to get them.

Remember that, on a wedgy blade, the edge of the tape closest to the edge defines the angle. Meaning that the tape must be the same distance from the edge on both sides. I usually use two pieces of tape, one per side, to assure that the location if the edges are able to assure the angles are equal.
~Richard

Tim, how fine a hone do you have, most knives top off where razor begin?

And yes do use at least a layer of tape, maybe 2 to start.

You will want to use a Rolling X stroke to hone the whole blade and blend the edge. Check the Library and there are several good YouTube videos.

Nice find, Welcome.

Thanks to both Geezer and Euclid for the input. One of the reasons I use the tape that I am using, a 1/4" wide Teflon backed tape is it is easier to get straight on the blade, one strip on each side. That is a good point about the edge of the tape defining the angle. I will remember that. As for the hones I use, for the razor if it is really dull and has nicks, I start with an Arkansas hard, about 1200 on the Norton scale, I move up to 8000 then use compounds to 15000 then strop. Does that sound right? It seems to me anytime you are having to grind out nicks it takes a more coarse stone than I would normally use. When I am doing a refresh I start with 3000 and go up.

That will work, what compound are you using?

Some can be harsh even at high grits.

I don't have them here right now, but I think the red one is a jewelers rough at .5 micron and the other is a 1 micron but I am guessing. I also have some iron oxide that is pretty fine. I use stuff like that I use at work to polish metal samples for microscopy examination on the SEM. That is my 8 hour a day hobby that pays the bills.