HHT on a new Dovo razor bought from SRD

Hello everyone. My name is Cros, I live in Dubai and I am only 5 hours into shaving with a straight razor. I got my first straight razor, Dovo Prima Klang set today from Straight Razor Designs. From my very limited knowledge of SS community and vendors, this is the best place to get a pro-honed razors, especially when you a newbie in the world of cut-throats. I have done my homework prior to the arrival of the package and read tons of material about stropping, shaving, lathering and various ways to test razor's sharpness/keenness etc. When I just go the razor I decided to run all of the tests and take notes, along with a little video footage to remember the results and compare those later on to my own honing. I basically wanted to establish a gold standard to work my way towards later in my 'honing career'. And there was my little disappointment when the 'hanging hair' was pretty much ignored by the lower part of the razor and would cut it only closer to the toe. Somewhere in the middle the blade agreed to the 'violin' way of cutting the hair. I tried with 5 different specimens of hair, of different diameter, length and color, always holding them root away from my fingers. The result was consistently the same. I should also mention that I removed the oil from the blade thoroughly by gently rubbing the blade with soapy fingers and rinsing under water. After 20 rounds of stropping on poly-web and 60 rounds of leather I got somewhat better results on HHT, but not what is described as a good result.
Alas, I did shave with the razor and it was the best shave I ever had. Compared to my old Shavette, this was really smooth and much less pulling and tagging. Again, the only thing I can compare it to is Shavette, not any other straight razor.
My question is to the more experienced members on this forum: have you experienced somehting like that in the early days of your SS or have any possible explanation for this? Your comments will be greatly appreciated.

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Originally Posted by Cros

I have done my homework prior to the arrival of the package and read tons of material about stropping, shaving, lathering and various ways to test razor's sharpness/keenness etc. When I just go the razor I decided to run all of the tests and take notes, along with a little video footage to remember the results and compare those later on to my own honing. I basically wanted to establish a gold standard to work my way towards later in my 'honing career'. .

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Really ???? All the tests ????

I am not sure which tests you are calling "all the tests" but If you performed the TNT you dulled the edge and it qwill need to be taken back to the stones.

Thumb pad test ... and all parts of HHT... did not do the thumbnail as I've read it would dull the edge

Also the arm hair and, finally, the shave test.

Again, I think there is nothing wrong with the place I bought the razor from. Most probably the problem is me, just want to figure out what I could have done wrong

Welcome to the forum.

All I can say is that after over a year of straight razor shaving that I have never done an HHT and still managed to teach myself to hone and get decent shaves. To me the test is if the razor shaves well or not. There is a lot written on this site about HHT and my impression is that there are so many variables involved that it was not worth my while to bother with it. In any event you got a good shave despite the iffy results from your HHTs so that just might indicate what HHTs are worth, to me anyway. As usual YMMV.

Bob

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Originally Posted by Cros

Again, I think there is nothing wrong with the place I bought the razor from. Most probably the problem is me, just want to figure out what I could have done wrong

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The one thing you have done wrong that I can see is that you are expecting some crazy HHT , when you sad the razor gave you the best shave to date.
What does the HHT matter if the razor gives you great shaves?
Sometimes I wish the term HHT was censored from the forum, most newbies get hung onto it as if its the holly grail of what shave ready is.

You know the term "test" implies something is being done to a scientific standard in a lab and is repeatable in any lab anywhere. To me the HHT meets none of that criteria and is just a very rough ball park guess as to the state of sharpness the blade is in. I think like Stephen that too many get hung up on it and the results they get. Shaving, stropping and honing are not something you can approach in a set piece manner as a science but it is more of an skill/art.

Bob

Hi Cros! I'm also in Dubai, thought I would introduce myself! Small world...

Welcome to SRP.
Coming from SRD, this razor should have been professionally honed and shave ready. Not even stropping is necessary. The best test in this case should have been the shave test. You should be able to get a feeling of what a shave-ready razor is like. Future shaves will require stropping but leave all sharpness tests for later until you learn how to hone it.

I was in that same boat a little while ago.

I always kept checking for that HHT test that everyone was talking about and some of my straights passed it and some didn't but all still gave me great shaves.

So it was always frustrating for me so i used to go back and hit the stones all the time.

I then started honing wedge or near wedge type straights that used to drive me bananas as to hone as they could not even pass the test were they would cut arm hairs midway so i just put them on the side and gave up as they didn't even seem to be sharp by feeling them with my thumb.

Then one day i decided to shave with one of those wedges i thought were not sharp at all.

To my surprise i got the best BBS shave with them that i have ever gotten.

There was no tug pull or nothing,just like a hot knife going through butter.

I have never tried that HHT test any more and the only way i know if it is shave ready,it is how Gssixgun said is to try one side of your face going down and seeing if the beard is cut smooth and well.

That's it for me.

Bought my first razor from SRD recently and the first thing I did was practice stropping with it which was a big mistake. I should have shaved with it first just to know exactly what shave ready is and then try to get back to that point with stropping. Now, I'm constantly wondering if my stropping is doing any good or did I just dull it the first time I stropped. I may not find out until I send it back to SRD with my honing coupon...

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Originally Posted by mainaman

The one thing you have done wrong that I can see is that you are expecting some crazy HHT , when you sad the razor gave you the best shave to date.

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When I switched from Gillette Fusion to Shavette, I thought I was getting the best shave ever, so I guess everything is relative to the last best thing we have experienced in our lives... just saying...

Anyhow, for the time being I will concentrate on stropping and shaving and will get back to HHT when I hit the hones (I am planing to invest in a Coticule).
I am very grateful for all comments and advices, after all it is the experience sharing that keeps us from re-inventing the wheel. This new adventure keeps getting more exciting, and I am happy I gave it a try!

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Originally Posted by Gotdzel

Hi Cros! I'm also in Dubai, thought I would introduce myself! Small world...

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Hey Gotdzel! It is great to know I am not the only one on this forum who lives here:))) Now there is officially a growing SR community in Dubai!

I always think of a test in two ways: 1. What is it's purpose?; 2. What's its fidelity to reality?

From the purpose perspective, in my opinion the purpose of the HHT is to give honers an idea of where the edge is before they test shave it. From that point of view it's not really something a user of a straight should care about but of course we all do :) It's a weird test because you can get a successful HHT on an edge that really shouldn't be shaving anyone as well as on a "good" edge. You can also get an unsuccessful HHT on a "good" edge. So you really need to know other bits of information for the HHT to be useful, and that information is often unknown to the end user but is known to the honer.

Second, fidelity to reality is quite important for any model-based test which is exactly what the HHT is. You don't shave by wafting your hair over the edge of the razor. Your beard whiskers are not head hairs, or dog hairs, or your wife's hairs etc. Your beard hairs are shortish, coarseish, and most importantly embedded in your skin. When you shave the edge rests on that skin. Is this even remotely modelled accurately by holding a hair in the air and seeing if it gets cut on a stationary blade edge? I don't think so, but others may disagree.

The only way such a divergent-from-reality test can even remotely hope to help you understand if an edge can shave you is by repeatedly, over time, noting the test results and correlating (not the best word, but will do) that result to what happens during the corresponding shave. That is the only way.

So really, the HHT test has two parts, and people either forget or ignore or don't know about the second and most important part. First you waft the hair over the edge (this is the bit people mistakenly think is the HHT). Second, and this is the most important part of the HHT, you test shave it and relate the results of the first part to the results of the second part.

Do this test several hundred independent times under varying conditions to get a decent sample size. Then you are in a position to know what the HHT is telling you.

James.

One day, long time ago, I have started probably longest HHT discussion on this forum.

Today I even do not check razor for HHT. I hone my razors and I trust my work and I can always get at least HHT3-4, however I do not perform HHT anymore. My test is my shave. I look for smoothness. When razor is not sharp enough will pull anyway, regardless of HHT results. Sometimes good HHT is results of bad blade...
I do HHT test for razors sent to friends or if someone requested honing as I`m sure they will do HHT anyway, once razor is received.

That`s all.

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Originally Posted by traps38

I was in that same boat a little while ago.

I always kept checking for that HHT test that everyone was talking about and some of my straights passed it and some didn't but all still gave me great shaves.

So it was always frustrating for me so i used to go back and hit the stones all the time.

I then started honing wedge or near wedge type straights that used to drive me bananas as to hone as they could not even pass the test were they would cut arm hairs midway so i just put them on the side and gave up as they didn't even seem to be sharp by feeling them with my thumb.

Then one day i decided to shave with one of those wedges i thought were not sharp at all.

To my surprise i got the best BBS shave with them that i have ever gotten.

There was no tug pull or nothing,just like a hot knife going through butter.

I have never tried that HHT test any more and the only way i know if it is shave ready,it is how Gssixgun said is to try one side of your face going down and seeing if the beard is cut smooth and well.

That's it for me.

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

So really, the HHT test has two parts, and people either forget or ignore or don't know about the second and most important part. First you waft the hair over the edge (this is the bit people mistakenly think is the HHT). Second, and this is the most important part of the HHT, you test shave it and relate the results of the first part to the results of the second part.

Do this test several hundred independent times under varying conditions to get a decent sample size. Then you are in a position to know what the HHT is telling you.

James.

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Now that is the really funny part of the HHT to me, having to do it several hundred times to get a rough idea of what it is telling you in real life terms. By the time you have honed razors several hundred times I think it becomes a moot point how necessary a tool it is to you by that time. Not disagreeing with you James one bit at all though.

Bob

Well, the several hundred times bit is just the statistician in me coming out. The bigger the sample, the tighter the standard error. There's probably some small sample approach that applies here, but I've always been an asymptotics junkie :D

James.

You know I don't stick my nose in on subjects dealing with honing too much around here not having done it for too long and the way I hone would likely freak most people on here out. That said, the only test I do is shave arm hairs off a 1K Nani then go from there with the aid of a black marker. I found using the black marker more useful than tests. Anyway everyone finds their own way eventually.

Bob

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Originally Posted by Cros

When I switched from Gillette Fusion to Shavette, I thought I was getting the best shave ever, so I guess everything is relative to the last best thing we have experienced in our lives... just saying...

Anyhow, for the time being I will concentrate on stropping and shaving and will get back to HHT when I hit the hones (I am planing to invest in a Coticule).
I am very grateful for all comments and advices, after all it is the experience sharing that keeps us from re-inventing the wheel. This new adventure keeps getting more exciting, and I am happy I gave it a try!

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I think you should wait a bit with the hones, and especially naturlas and especially Coticules.
If you want to hone start with some synthetics for touch up, then gradually add lower grits to build a progression.
You will initially need to touch up only, then when you learn shaving technique and touch up you will be ready to jump into more serious collecting and honing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

I always think of a test in two ways: 1. What is it's purpose?; 2. What's its fidelity to reality?

From the purpose perspective, in my opinion the purpose of the HHT is to give honers an idea of where the edge is before they test shave it. From that point of view it's not really something a user of a straight should care about but of course we all do :) It's a weird test because you can get a successful HHT on an edge that really shouldn't be shaving anyone as well as on a "good" edge. You can also get an unsuccessful HHT on a "good" edge. So you really need to know other bits of information for the HHT to be useful, and that information is often unknown to the end user but is known to the honer.

Second, fidelity to reality is quite important for any model-based test which is exactly what the HHT is. You don't shave by wafting your hair over the edge of the razor. Your beard whiskers are not head hairs, or dog hairs, or your wife's hairs etc. Your beard hairs are shortish, coarseish, and most importantly embedded in your skin. When you shave the edge rests on that skin. Is this even remotely modelled accurately by holding a hair in the air and seeing if it gets cut on a stationary blade edge? I don't think so, but others may disagree.

The only way such a divergent-from-reality test can even remotely hope to help you understand if an edge can shave you is by repeatedly, over time, noting the test results and correlating (not the best word, but will do) that result to what happens during the corresponding shave. That is the only way.

So really, the HHT test has two parts, and people either forget or ignore or don't know about the second and most important part. First you waft the hair over the edge (this is the bit people mistakenly think is the HHT). Second, and this is the most important part of the HHT, you test shave it and relate the results of the first part to the results of the second part.

Do this test several hundred independent times under varying conditions to get a decent sample size. Then you are in a position to know what the HHT is telling you.

James.

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Inconsistency of HHT results is understandable to me. The only unanswered question to me remains the fact that different parts of the blade react to the same hair differently, i.e. the lower part simply ignores the hair, middle part cuts it with 'violin' moves, and the toe actually seems to do the job with a audible snap. Same blade, multiple tries with one and the same hair at a time - same result.

Without being a smart ass on my part, you consistently got the same variable results along the blade from the HHT yet got a very good shave. Now based on the consistent results the HHTs were giving you on that one razor coupled to the actual shave result that blade gave you would be lead to believe that you would have to hone all razors to give that same HHT result to get a good shave. What happens to the validity of that conclusion when you get a razor, hone it and it will not pass an HHT yet still provides a good shave? Better yet what happens if you hone a razor and it does the HHT the same all along the blade yet you get a poor shave? I believe people on here have had both happen. The type of results you were getting would indicate, to me, the relative value of an HHT in determining the shave readiness of a blade. To me that means an HHT is not all that relative an indicator of shave readiness as proven by the shave. That is what I think the results of your HHTs were telling you.

Bob

Bob, I have already been convinced that HHT is not a good indicator of shave-readiness. My question is different though: why does the same blade have different cutting properties along its edge? Can this be uneven honing, or maybe straight razors are honed that way on purpose by professional honers?

Sorry, I can not answer that specific question as I do not use the HHT when I hone nor have I done the HHT to razors I have received from various professional honers. The pro honed razors I just shaved with and all have done the job well. I don't use that HHT because I am not really sure what it reliable indicates if anything.

Bob

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Originally Posted by Cros

Bob, I have already been convinced that HHT is not a good indicator of shave-readiness. My question is different though: why does the same blade have different cutting properties along its edge? Can this be uneven honing, or maybe straight razors are honed that way on purpose by professional honers?

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Your HHT simply shows a variation in the edge's sharpness. Your shave test shows that variation is moot when it comes to shaving your beard unless you only shaved with the toe of the razor. :)