Lathering Issues

Good evening all,

I started straight shaving yesterday and so far have put in two good shaves. My technique for shaving has been working fairly well overall, but I am really having a problem making a good lather. I can certainly make enough of it and get it whipped up, but when it is applied, it is overly thin and dries up on my face within minutes, before I can even use it. The dried part even flaked off and flew around when I went over it again with the brush. I did find today that a lighter touch in the bowl left a nicer residue in the bowl (closer to the videos I have seen so far), but even when it was creating nice tips of cream on the brush, it went on a bit thin. Has anyone run through this problem early on, and what could I try to improve it? I've tried both a cream of generally high-regard and cream-soap combo, so it is doubtful that is my issue. I am also using a badger silvertip, so we know that isn't the problem either. The water temp I can get isn't exceedingly hot, but it is somewhat warm.

Thanks for your insight,

-Wolf

Carefully squeeze your brush dry. Work soap/cream into the brush. Add drops of water occasionally. When the brush is fully loaded, either lather in a bowl, or on your face. Building lather can take up to two minutes. What you are looking for is microfoam (think high quality cappuccino or meringue). I would strongly recommend that you get your lather right before you attempt any further shaves. Watery or dry lather will ruin your shave more reliably than a dull razor will.

Regards,
Robin

Is there any good way to tell if you need to add some more water, or is it all a visual cue?

The proof is in the ... lather. Really, microfoam like on a good cappuccino is the best comparison I can come up with. The lather should be moist but not wet. Or dry. Just right, if you know what I mean ;)

Dry, thin lather is a sure sign of not getting enough soap on your brush.

As already suggested, use a soaked, squeezed brush on the puck and really load the brush til you have a thick creamy paste on there.

Then you can build that into lather in a bowl, adding drops of water as you go, or on your face, dabbing the brush in the sink to add water.

You want it dense, creamy and moist, so that when it goes on it doesn't look sudsy and thin, or so thick you can't spread it - think a happy medium between cake frosting and watery yoghurt. Soft peaks forming on the brush is a fair guide you're about there. Everyone has different water and products, so use vids as a guide, not a guru.

The best way to practice, is practice. You don't need to shave to practice lathering, and soap is cheap.

Another problem can also be that yer slow :)

It is a common problem when starting out, but is really simple to solve, lather 1/2 or even 1/4 of yer face at a time, BUT still work on getting the lather better too.. Eventually the lather improves, and so does your shaving technique, and it all comes together at the same time...

OH yeah in answer to the "prep" question, yes the lather should sit on your beard to prep it, you do that by lathering, then stropping your razor, then rinsing, then re-lathering for the shave....

Probably the best demostration of lather making IMHO is Jockeys' video. I been cup and brushing for 30 years and I learned a ton just watching this short clip. Even if you don't go the full route of making warm uber lather it still demos using the brush and adding water.

Hope this helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w3JRmActHE
Pelkey

This helped me out ALOT!
Making Ãœberlather - Straight Razor Place Wiki

Well, yesterday's lather was better... It went on thicker, without any bubbles to speak of. I still ran into a little bit of drying, but it wasn't as severe. I used a combination of Trumper's violet hard soap and vintage blades luxury shaving cream. Hopefully, it will continue to improve over time.

Yes, you can use the 1" test: put a bit of lather on your thumb and make your index finger touch it; slowly begin to separate them apart until the lather break. You should get a separation of 1" before you lather breaks. You may want to take a look at the picture I posted on this thread for what good lather looks like: http://straightrazorpalace.com/soaps...dega-bomb.html

You should get similar results.

Al raz.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfcobra

Is there any good way to tell if you need to add some more water, or is it all a visual cue?

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That's a good, tangible way to test your lather. If the lather wasn't able to pass the 1 inch test, what are the indicators of likely causes?

I have a question. Do you have to use a cream in addition to a soap to get good lather? Every posted video that get's offered up as a guide to newbies to make lather has someone using cream or a combination of cream/soap/glycerin. I have yet to see a video with someone using only a soap.

So I am wondering if my lather issues are because I'm using only a soap. Am I expecting too much from just soap alone?

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Originally Posted by Raithen

So I am wondering if my lather issues are because I'm using only a soap. Am I expecting too much from just soap alone?

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Indeed. The only true way to shaving enlightenment is with a Filarmonica honed on a combination of 15 hones (mix of synthetics and naturals), stropped with a progression of hanging strops and paddles, a mix of at least 3 soaps, creams, and glycerin - and don't forget a brush progression!

Joking aside, soap will do nicely. Not a video but a photo tutorial, but it should help: Making basic soap lather - Straight Razor Place Wiki. Keep in mind that, like everything else in this hobby, it takes time, patience, and experience. That said, there is a reason why I at least keep recommending Castle Forbes to beginners - easy instant lather.

Good luck,
Robin

Making Ãœberlather - Straight Razor Place Wiki

The Wiki Article a great source of fast info on specific items BUT where it is lacking is the Q&A that goes on in the real thread here

http://straightrazorpalace.com/shavi...berlather.html

The back and forth banter that brings out the details just like this thread is doing

See at post #20 is where the real info is hidden


http://straightrazorpalace.com/209205-post20.html


This is why you always see me say the same thing over and over "Look at the Wiki then follow the links back to the original threads as many questions are asked and answered".,..

Also U-tube google shave lather mantic safe method

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BeBerlin

Indeed. The only true way to shaving enlightenment is with a Filarmonica honed on a combination of 15 hones (mix of synthetics and naturals), stropped with a progression of hanging strops and paddles, a mix of at least 3 soaps, creams, and glycerin - and don't forget a brush progression!

Joking aside, soap will do nicely. Not a video but a photo tutorial, but it should help: Making basic soap lather - Straight Razor Place Wiki. Keep in mind that, like everything else in this hobby, it takes time, patience, and experience. That said, there is a reason why I at least keep recommending Castle Forbes to beginners - easy instant lather.

Good luck,
Robin

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I agree.
To me überlather seems like just another way to overcomplicate shaving. I think newbies just need to find a good soap or cream they like and learn to use it.

Well, yesterday my lather passed the 1 inch stretch test pretty well. It even applied fairly well and evenly. However, I still ran into a little bit of it drying into a crust on my face after it had been out for, say, 7 minutes. The easy solution, I suppose, would be to just lather up part of my face at a time and shave that before moving on, but it's not the most convenient concept. Could some of it be from me being at high altitude in a low-moisture environment?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfcobra

Well, yesterday my lather passed the 1 inch stretch test pretty well. It even applied fairly well and evenly. However, I still ran into a little bit of it drying into a crust on my face after it had been out for, say, 7 minutes. The easy solution, I suppose, would be to just lather up part of my face at a time and shave that before moving on, but it's not the most convenient concept. Could some of it be from me being at high altitude in a low-moisture environment?

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To me, it still sounds like the lather is just a tad low in water. I live in CO and I seldom have issues with lather out here. When I lather I tend to add just a little, little, bit more of water and whip up my lather for about 3-5 minutes. For me, the lathering up in a bowl is like a zen for my day.

On a side note, I read you are at the AFA in the Springs. My work has requested I attend a graduation for a client down there but I will find out around next week if I will be there around the 19th. If I do, and our schedules line up, I can swing by afterward with some of my creams and give ya some guidance. If you would like, that is.

That sounds like an appealing offer. I'll have to see what my schedule will produce, but it would be really nice if our free time did line up.

I'm going to try to get some glycerin tomorrow and see if I can't make a better lather, and maybe in the process, manage to improve the time that my cream remains useful. I'll let you know how it works out.

A trick is to practice.

Snag a $1.98 puck of Williams and practice.
Add too little water, add too much... soak the
puck, don't...just play. I find the descriptions
confusing and for two bucks I can play for days.

If you have an expensive brush set it aside
and snag a $8.00 CVS boar brush. Work the heck
out of it -- push it too hard, lather too lightly
soak it, forget to soak it... abuse it even.

Lather on your hand, in a cup, on your face even.

While shaving -- lather often keeping your face wet
all lather dries eventually so when it does just work
some more on your face.

One last tip when you start to work your shave lather first wet your
face with cool clear water maybe a couple of times.
It can take a couple minutes to build your lather so take
advantage of clear water to soften your beard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

A trick is to practice.

Snag a $1.98 puck of Williams and practice.
Add too little water, add too much... soak the
puck, don't...just play. I find the descriptions
confusing and for two bucks I can play for days.

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Wow Tom you just took me back 3 years on this forum, that used to be the standard advice given for learning to lather, of course it was $.98 :)
This is good advice still, because if you can learn to lather Williams and get a good shave, everything else will be a piece of cake....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bobpell

Probably the best demostration of lather making IMHO is Jockeys' video. I been cup and brushing for 30 years and I learned a ton just watching this short clip. Even if you don't go the full route of making warm uber lather it still demos using the brush and adding water.

Hope this helps.

YouTube - Jockeys makes some Uber-Lather!
Pelkey

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Hi Bobpell,
Had seen tons of videos (Mantic59 and others here) about lathering, but oddly enough, hadn't seen this video yet...very good info. Thanks for sharing. Glad to know that others are using Glycerin as an added side to the lather too. It works wonders for me.

Thanks,
-Robert

Drying happens for only two reasons: taking too long to shave, or having a soap without enough glycerin and/or stearic acid.

Stearic acid is acidic only in the sense that it's make from a fatty acid: in this case, cow fat. Tallow. It hardens soaps and it makes lathers stand up thicker and firmer and dry out more slowly.

Glycerin aids foaming and helps retain moisture.

Without enough of those two, your soap dries faster. The melt-and-pour, high-glycerin soap sold by ClassicShaving has a moisturizing lather that lasts a fairly long time. The soap I make is real oil-and-lye soap with liquid glycerin added and stearic acid beads melted and blended into the mix. I find I get a slightly longer-lasting foam with this than I get from the Classic Shaving stuff, which contains no stearic acid.

Lots of creams contain stearic acid; in fact, that's what gives them the pearly look. If you're getting a nice creamy lather that isn't drippy or full of big air bubbles, and it's from a good commercial cream, you shouldn't get the lather drying on your face unless you're taking a long time to shave.

If you're slow right now, fuggedaboudit. You'll get faster.

I got some glycerin from a local pharmacy, and added it in last night. I must say, it was a huge improvement in creaminess and drying prevention. Uberlather should be made mandatory for all shavers, IMO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfcobra

Uberlather should be made mandatory for all shavers, IMO.

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Well, you know what is being said about opinions, and quite rightly in this case IMO. I don't know what is wrong with your creams or soaps, but the ones I use (CF, DC, EJ) actually deteriorate with this method.

What kind of soap did you start off with? If it comes from the bottom shelf at Wal-Mart or Walgreen's it's the wrong kind. Buy online or from specialty shops. Make sure it says "glycerin" somewhere in high up in the description. And, as mentioned earlier, it's good to look for "stearic acid." That's in most of the high-dollar creams. It's basically the same thing as tallow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sigurd Aaset

I agree.
To me überlather seems like just another way to overcomplicate shaving. I think newbies just need to find a good soap or cream they like and learn to use it.

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Agreed. Besides, you have to learn to make good lather first, before you can learn how to make it better.

Tests are all very helpful, but the only real one is what the lather is like to shave with.

Some things just take a bit of time, patience and practice. Sometimes there really is no substitute for your own efforts, mistakes and experience.

I think sometimes we make things harder by reading and watching so much stuff and overloading with information, when 95% of it is in gathering some basic info, and adding common sense.

Wolf,

I've been using just my C&E shaving soap and a few drops of glycerin. I finally ordered some Truefitt & Hill unscented shaving cream from SRD at Obie's recommendation. It's expensive, but wow, what a difference. My lather was really good before I bought the cream, but now it's "over the top". The difference is amazing. Sorry for the blurry picture - I didn't have time to do a re-take. Do I have to go to work, or can I just stay home and shave?

I can already see that telling my wife that using a straight razor represents financial savings over Gillette Fusion blades is definitely not going to work. I think I'm developing every AD conceivable:). I guess I'll just have to remind her of how nice my BBS face feels. Yea, that's the ticket...

BTW, my English Bridle strop just came in from SRD. It's awesome! It's a work of art. Used it for the first time this morning - so much easier to use than my smaller strop (which now officially is my travel strop).

Greg

QUOTE=wolfcobra;588067]I got some glycerin from a local pharmacy, and added it in last night. I must say, it was a huge improvement in creaminess and drying prevention. Uberlather should be made mandatory for all shavers, IMO.[/QUOTE]

Ok here's 2 cents worth.

I always seem to raise eyebrows (that's a polite way of saying I catch hell :)) when I say this, but I am a minimalist. I don't believe soaps and creams need to cost a week's wages to do a good job. Now don't get me wrong. If you've got the budget to afford it and that's what floats your boat, then by all means please indulge yourself.

As for me I use Williams shaving soap at about $1.25 a cake or Van Der Hagen soap at about a buck from Wal Mart. With that I add about an almond sized drop of Musgo Real cream ($9 from Amazon.com) and a squirt from some $2 a bottle glycerin.

I'd stack my lather up against anyone's. It's like using Dream Whip topping.

Pelkey

Thanks for the input Bob - you won't "catch hell" from me. If I weren't looking for advice & opinions I wouldn't be posting questions on the forum.

Although I'm new to SR shaving, I'm not new to wet shaving. Years ago when I first switched from using electric I tried a can of cheap foam and a safety razor. My skin couldn't take the irritation. At first I assumed that it was the razor, but when someone pointed out that it may be the foam and not the razor. That's when I happened into a Crabtree & Evelyn shop in my hometown and found some plain shaving soap with almond oil and started wet shaving. The difference was amazing - no more razor burn.

I'm definitely not opposed to branching out, but sometimes I'm a creature of habit. The C&E shaving soap, although slightly more expensive worked and lasted a long time. Since I've had a hard time finding the almond oil soap recently (I have 1.5 cake left in my drawer) I bought some of the C&E scented (Sienna). I was fearful of trying it as I was scared the scented soap might be different enough that it would irritate my face, but it didn't. I'm pleased with the T&H shave cream, and feel like I got what I paid for; however, I'm not married to it:).

All that to say this: I'm a fan of the K.I.S.S. principle and although I can afford some of the finer things in life, like anyone else I'm not opposed to saving a buck or 2 or 3 here and there. That is, providing it yields similar results. Since you say the Musgo does provide similar results, I'll take your advice and try some next time. I'll likely stick to my soap since the cost differential doesn't bother me as much on it.

Thanks again,
Greg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bobpell

Ok here's 2 cents worth.

I always seem to raise eyebrows (that's a polite way of saying I catch hell :)) when I say this, but I am a minimalist. I don't believe soaps and creams need to cost a week's wages to do a good job. Now don't get me wrong. If you've got the budget to afford it and that's what floats your boat, then by all means please indulge yourself.

As for me I use Williams shaving soap at about $1.25 a cake or Van Der Hagen soap at about a buck from Wal Mart. With that I add about an almond sized drop of Musgo Real cream ($9 from Amazon.com) and a squirt from some $2 a bottle glycerin.

I'd stack my lather up against anyone's. It's like using Dream Whip topping.

Pelkey

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by bobpell

Ok here's 2 cents worth.

I always seem to raise eyebrows (that's a polite way of saying I catch hell :)) when I say this, but I am a minimalist. I don't believe soaps and creams need to cost a week's wages to do a good job.
....snip...

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I also am a minimalist yet appreciate the subtle differences between
different products.

In life it is all about balance, budget and doing the best ya can
with what you got.

In a relationship the budget needs to include luxuries that you both can savor.
It may be a finer cut of meat for dinner or a bottle of good red with
a home made pasta and sauce. It may be flowers on the table from
the garden. It may be something that the kids love enough to sit
down and have dinner with the family.

Well it is time to go and polish up may latest less than $30 Ebay
prize. I did want that $500 W&B but this one will do despite the
small potato chip warp of the blade. Ebay-#- 140399579325 :)

Well said, nifty. I appreciate your input!

Greg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by niftyshaving

In life it is all about balance, budget and doing the best ya can
with what you got.

In a relationship the budget needs to include luxuries that you both can savor.
It may be a finer cut of meat for dinner or a bottle of good red with
a home made pasta and sauce. It may be flowers on the table from
the garden. It may be something that the kids love enough to sit
down and have dinner with the family.

---

I know how you feel. Sometimes it might be the soap, I've noticed that some soaps make beter lather than others. For instance I purchased a $10.00 soap from vintage blades and I just could not get it to make good lather. I purchased a soap off of a lady on ebay (Susies) for about $6.00, man it makes great lather every time. I love it. So maybe think about getting another soap.


(Crawl low in smoke)

I don't use glycerin and my soap is what all member here does not like, it's Caswell Massey, I have no problem with lathering, works well for me :)

apart from some opinion about uberlather should be mandatory for shaver....there are also opinion in other thread saying it should be avoided for newbie :) I guess this is only matter of experience, anyhow uberlather is there for the purpose, not only because it provide a rich fancy lather, at least that's what I believe. I rarely use uberlather nor add glycerin in my lather...I'm pretty much have a thin budget for almost anything, I use palmolive cream which is cheap, a CM that is a gift, been a month wet shaving and thanks Alraz's advice my lather is getting better and better, I learn the importance of hydrate the lather, etc. in the end I'm pretty much satisfied with the result of my lather

Hey everybody,

I am still on my first week of shaving with a ST razor and making lathers and every thing and im really enjoying it so far but I have been having alot of truble with making a good lather. Now after reading all this info and every ones in put and putting it all together I went and made my first great lather! I was very excited and can't wait for my next shave.
Thank you every body!

Andrevs,

You're quite welcome...Happy to hear that you are having success crafting a good lather.

What kind of soap or cream are you using ?

Taylor of Bond Street

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Originally Posted by MARKHOLLADAY

What kind of soap or cream are you using ?

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Williams is all I have ever used...but looking to try new things...

New to the forum...I have been using a DE for years and just started using a Straight for the first time. Will post info about the razor later...