Lather experiment.

Well, I'm fairly new to the world of straight razor shaving. Along with that comes inexperience in making lather. I bought the Van Der Hagen kit with the small bowl, the boar brush and the soap. I wanted to start out with some of the cheapest so that my technique would have to be decent in order to get a decent lather. Since this post is about lather, I'll get right to it.

I've had decent lather and I've also had really awful, suds type lather. I couldn't tell when I'd get on and when I'd get another. So today I decided to try a few different variations to see if I could figure out what was up. First I ran the brush under hot water for about twenty seconds until I was sure it was completely soaked. I shook out the brush with three hard shakes until I was certain most of the water was out. Next, I loaded the brush with swirls around the moistened soap for about three seconds or so. Then I started swirling the brush in the bowl with moderate pressure applied.
The result: Nothing. I got absolutely no lather.

Round 2: This time i tried loading the brush for probably 30 seconds. I still only put the tips into the soap but it was a long loading time.
Result: There was a bit more lather, but it was still very sudsy.

Round 3: This time, I loaded for three seconds and tried lathering on my hand for the first time.
Result: Excellent, thick whipped cream type lather. This was by far the best lather that I have ever conjured up, and it took the least amount of time of any of my other attempts.

Round 4, 5, 6, 7: That's right, I made probably about ten batches of lather today just for kicks. I didn't even shave!
Results: Using same technique, and a little more soap this time, I made quite a bit of lather that was very thick and felt fantastic on my face.

Round 8-10: I decided to try the bowl again. Same amount of loading time, around three seconds.
Results: A lot more lather than I usually get, but it was less than satisfacory in the quality department. I could still see my skin through the lather quite clearly.

Conclusion: Lathering in my hand was extremely successful. Anyone know why it was so much more successful than the bowl? Is the bowl too small? Is the brush too stiff and not able to hold enough water? Am I simply putting off the inevitable by not purchasing a better brush or larger scuttle? I'm going to try my luck with some of CarrieM's lime shave cream and see the difference. Any advice or previous experiences would be appreciated!

I'm no expert but if the difference is between hand and bowl lathering I suspect you have a pressure differential. Do you hold the bowl in you hand while you bowl lather...try that. Maybe a little more pumping action in thw bowl. Hope that helps!

When I first started I had the same kit and the same trouble and I found a solution in the same manner. Just keep working between your hand and the bowl, you'll get it. It is a combination of knowing how much to soak the brush to how much water actually stays in the bristles. I would recommend soaking your brush in the bowl of water for about 5-10 minutes then start over. You will also find after a break in period that brush starts working better this is normal. Just take your time and enjoy.

I've never used Van Der Hagen, but I do know different brushes behave differently, as do many soaps. Just like your learning, it's trial and error. You should be able to build lather in your bowl, loading for more than 3 seconds shouldn't hurt it, as a matter of fact, it should help it. When you load, don't be afraid to let the bristles of the brush fan out a bit to pick up lather. When you transfer your brush to the bowl, you should swirling it around, even mashing it (fanning out the bristles) a bit to make good lather.
In most cases, Suds are the beginning. Your hand is a different texture than the bowl, that's why it lather's quickly, I think your giving up to quick on the bowl. (Granted, 1-2 minutes, you should have lather) Keep swirling the suds around, pushing them down from the sides, until lather starts to form. If you are shaking out all the water from your brush, (which is good), you may have to add some as you go, This is normal....Check out Youtube. Search for Mantic59

He has some video's on lather building, shaving, etc...They're very good and entertaining....

+1 on the Mantic vids...very helpful!

I usually face lather however when I use my scuttle I find even using the same brushes and soaps the technique for building lather changes. I find using the same amount of soap and water gives me poorer lather with the scuttle. I need to decrease the water in the brush to get the same lather quality using the scuttle.

I definitely noticed an improvement in the scuttle when I held it in my hand and when I soaked it in warm water.
Is it perhaps the grooves in my hand that let the soap become more aerated as I lather? just a thought.

I sometimes notice an improvement with lather when I lather directly on my face or hand. A bowl can be a little nicer for a three pass shave because you make all the lather you need once. That idea about how your hand aerates the lather better actually makes a lot of sense. Also, sometimes it's quicker to skip the bowl if you're in a hurry in the morning.

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Originally Posted by con16721

I definitely noticed an improvement in the scuttle when I held it in my hand and when I soaked it in warm water.
Is it perhaps the grooves in my hand that let the soap become more aerated as I lather? just a thought.

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If you find a bowl with a textured or grooved surface that might get a similar effect.

Any ideas on where I might find one of those?

I myself am learning and experimenting with lathering in diff ways, I did the face lathering and it worked pretty well and got a good lather. I have a big mug I like and it takes a bit more time so, but in good time I have a good lather though I am in the stage of finding that "Sweet Spot" of wet and dry the perfect lather. Been swaying in between the two dry or wet, centering in on that middle ground.

Haven't tried hand lathering as it seems that one would have to create lather for each pass, for me when I shave I like to take time and enjoy everything as I've never really kicked back and actually liked shaving so.

Trial and error, just another thing to learn on the way.:needcoffee:

I have yet to try face lathering. Do you load the brush between each pass?

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Originally Posted by con16721

Any ideas on where I might find one of those?

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I obtained a Suribachi Japanese Grinding Bowl. Works great and breaks in your brush nice and quick. You can find them at most asian markets.

===>Link<===

--Shoki

Comming from someone who had also started out with the Van Der Hagen Kit with Boar Brush and Bowl.......Get a different Brush.

For about 3-4 months or so, I was using the brush and had a Hard time getting a good lather...Once I got a new Brush (I got a badger brush from Rudy Vey). To compare the difference.....If you could imagine the heavens opening up and hearing the Angels singing above.....Yeah, the new brush was that much better.


As for getting a bowl with some ridges in it, I found some bowls at Target (I believe they are "Thomas O'Brien"), they have some slight ridges in it and they're reletively small bowls to easily fit in the hand.

I use the Classic Shaving Mug Soap from classicshaving.com, with the Dark Wood Covered Shave Bowl, and Merkur Silvertip Shave Brush, Polished, both of which are also from www.classicshaving.com. I find that it is easier to build lather on my face. I get my brush wet with very warm/hot water, then allow (not force) the excess water to drip from the brush. I load the brush for about 20-30 seconds in my bowl, then begin to lather my face. It takes me about 2 minutes to really get a good lather on my face this way, but I've never had a problem. Obviously, this is just a suggestion, and what has worked for me. You will need to find the method that works best for you.

Today I tried lathering on my face. I also got a new Frank Shaving Brush off of ebay. Man, was that thing luxurious on the face. I'm not sure how long I simply sat there feeling the soft badger on my face!

Anyways, I tried face lathering and found that the lather was exceptionally rich this time around, and I was even able to use the lather that was on the brush for two more passes! Face lathering was really enjoyable!

Now I am just a novice at this, I ordered The Col Conk almond soap, and VintageBlade LLC sandalwook cream. Both are awesome! Well I was screwin around disapointed That I had to pick between the two. so I put a dab of cream on the soap and went to town with my soaked brush. By far best lather Ive made yet! Anyone with more experiance willing to try it and give feedback???

I find bowl lathering better with a dead flat surface - I bowl lather in a Ye Olde' crystal ash tray (creates a really good suction for the brush) and stiff brush - as opposed to ridged or corrugated surfaces.

I lather on my face with any really soft brush and mitchells wool fat usually works pretty well.

I usually face lather as I like massaging my face with the bristles.

I suggest using cream to begin with, as soap can be a bit trickier. Cream is good as you can use the same measured amount every time, and work from there to find how much water is required to mix up a good lather. I use Speick shaving cream and recommend it very highly! I do find it takes a few minutes of mixing to work up a lather that'll form peaks.

If you can get a halfway decent lather with that brush, all the more power to you. I had that kit and the soap isn't bad (isn't great, but works well enough till you want something different). That brush is crap or at least darn close to it. I'm sure worse could be had off of ebay if you tried... Anyway, spend another $12 on an Omega if you're on a budget. They're great. If you're not on a tighter budget the sky is the limit with the brushes. I switched brushes and immediately had more luck building a consistent lather. I still use the bowl and occasionally the VDH soap. If you can get your hands on some cream from The Real Shaving Co. (my local rite aid has it for about $5 a tube) that stuff lathers really well and has some good cushion. It will lather decently with the VDH brush but a simple brush switch will make you feel like a latherin' pro.

I've been using my Frank Shaving finest badger brush off of ebay for a few weeks now, and just like you said I do in fact feel like a regular pro at making lather now. I also just got in a tub of CarrieM's lime shaving cream and am extremely impressed with the lather and increased cushion. I've even started the lather with a few swirls on the VDH and then added the cream, which produced very very comfortable and delicious smelling lather as well.
I've got a few samples from mama bear's as well that I can't wait to try. I've got the lemon ice sample that I think might make a very good smelling lather with CarrieM's lime cream. It will be almost like a tingly lemon-lime. I'll call it.... Sprite lather!

Peace,
Conor

I haven't tried CarrieM's soaps yet, but I can attest to the awesomeness of Mama Bears soaps. I just got in a tub of Lime Ice this week and its amazing. I feel like I'm skiing down a glacier in Tahiti while surrounded by an endless supply of wenches armed with mojitos and fresh seafood. Also, her customer service is awesome. I had a slight problem with the shave stick I ordered of another scent and she already shipped a replacement.

I'm really excited to try them. I got ye olde barbershoppe, awakenings, mandarin ice, lemon ice, Energy, Polynesian Red, and she sent me a free sample of phoenix rising. They got here extremely fast.

Conor,
My take is that lather is a combination of 3 ingredients, not 2; (1) Soap, (2) water and (3) air. Unlike the palm of your hand or your face (whose surface is filled with whiskers), the bowl does not change its shape during the lathering and therefore requires a bit more churning to get the lather going. The faster you get air into this mix, the faster you make lather.

Each technique (palm, face, bowl) requires its own ratio of the 3 ingredients and you need to experiment to find out what works.

+1 on Mama Bear and CarrieM

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Originally Posted by con16721

Any ideas on where I might find one of those?

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Conor,
I have a Dirty Bird Scuttle with grooves/ridges inside and it really helps with whipping the air into the soap/water. Julie can customize the scuttle for you too. Another option is to pick up Japanese rice bowls with ridges in them. They are equally fantastic.