Lather?? help please!!!

Hello gents,

To start with, I began shaving "the right way" recently due to the fact that I’ve heard it irritates the skin much less, and I’m sick of having razor burn after shaving with the Fusion I had. Plus, I just think it's cool. I've started out on a budget, I got the Van der Hagen Deluxe brush/soap/mug kit with a Parker Disposable Straight Razor. I eventually want a Boker Tree Brand or a Hart Steel Razor, but I figure the parker was a good introductory step to see whether or not I want to do this and drop 150+ on a razor. So far I love it, minus the nicks. But I think the nicks may be because I’m missing something when it comes to prep. I must say that the pre-shave prep was one of the reasons I was looking forward to wet shaving, but so far I’ve only been frustrated with it. I've searched the forums, tried all the different methods I’ve found, etc... but I can't seem to get a decent lather going. I've been using the tutorial from here on building the lather in a bowl, not lathering on your face. Anyway, I'll get what I think is a good consistency, put it on my face and it disappears within a minute. It's more like soap suds than shaving lather. Today I actually stopped trying after like half an hour of frustration, completely rinsed my face and brush off and started trying again. My face, after I rinsed whatever I thought was a lather off (still hadn't shaved), was kind of tight and a little dry feeling, could this mean something? It also kind of seems that whatever it is that I’m making makes my hair stickier during my shave instead of being lubricating. Whenever I lather up, it kind of looks good to me in the bowl then I try and brush it on my face and it seems to just sink into my skin. I can visibly see my skin when I'm shaving, I’m pretty sure I’m missing something. Is this something I’m doing wrong? I've been shaving with whatever it is that I’m making, and it's definately not the comfortable, enjoyable experience that everyone says it should be. Should I just go with putting the soap in the bottom of my mug and lathering straight on my face? Could it be the soap? The Van der Hagen Soap I’m using gets great reviews, but that's assuming I know what I’m doing (big assumption). Could it be the brush? Could it be the water? I'm serving in Afghanistan right now and the water quality here is poor, very hard and treated non-potable is what we have running in our plumbing. I'm thinking of switching to a Truefitt & Hill cream instead of using soap, as that seems somewhat easier and less hassle, which is good for me right now while I’m here overseas. But I want to understand what it is that I’m doing wrong with the soap, as I want to enjoy that type of prep also, and my searches thus far haven't fixed anything. Also, any input on King of Shaves pre-shave oil? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Your Parker will nick easily, but I don't think the soap is at fault. I've shaved while at the beach using hand soap or dish detergent that I "lathered up" using my hands and no brush at all. Lather problems are usually a result of a problem of the balance between water and soap, or, in your case, hard water. You'll get lathering down eventually. I've been using the Van der Hagen soap lately and find it works just fine. I'd recommend lightening on your pressure with the Parker. Keep at it. It will come around for you.

Try taking your cream or soap and rubbing it around the inside of your bowl. Works better with a bowl with a ruff interior. Just rub the stick or the round inside the bowl until there's a light coating. If using a cream do the same with your fingers.
You increase the 'surface area' of the soap. Then run your brush around the bowl and in no time at all - lather.
I use a Suribachi and it works great with all soaps and creams.

If you can get a hold of a cheap Arko shave stick soap and give that a try. It has a reputation of lathering well in all kinds of water.

Bob

Thanks for the feedback. I'm getting it's more of a time-learned skill rather than one that you get right away. Like whistling with your fingers, something you have to do over and over to get, more of a "learn by doing" than a teachable skill. As sad as it sounds i'm probably going to go back and practice lathering during the evenings. I mean there's nothing else to do over here, so why not? Thanks for the tip on the parker ace, I think I may be adding too much pressure now that you mention it. That's funny with the dish detergent! Johnus, if i'm going with that method do you add any water to the bowl or just stay with what's loaded on the brush? I'll look into the Arko shave stick rather than using bottled water. Thanks, guys!

Most new comers to wet shaving are too bashful with the lathering bowl and do not sufficiently load the brush.

Load the brush for a full 60 seconds until the soap suds are pouring out of the soap tub or bowl.

Then go to the bowl, pour and wipe all the suds into the bowl, then whip it vigorously for at least another minute or two.

Load the brush again if it still looks too thin or add hot water if it is too dry.

A rich lather should entirely cover the skin.

Enjoy your shave.

Gammaray, not to sound too ignorant but is there some way to visually tell if it's too thin or too dry? Thanks!

I don't want to answer for Gammaray but from my own experience making lather if you use too much water it will be thin and runny. You put it on and it wants to slide down your face literally. You can have a thick lather but it does not have enough water in it and drys out too quickly. When you are making lather you are walking a fine line between having too much or too little water mixed with your soap.

You could also be building a decent lather but shaving slowly enough that if you cover your whole face with lather parts of it will dry out before you get to them, been guilty of that one. You could try lathering only a portion of your face at one time and then go to the next section you want to do.

Bob

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Originally Posted by plwolfe

Gammaray, not to sound too ignorant but is there some way to visually tell if it's too thin or too dry? Thanks!

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There are some videos showing members lathering. If you watch carefully you can see when they add water when it's too thick.

Thick lather that needs water has little to no suds or foam in the bowl when lathering. If you advance to applying that lather to your face it will be easy to figure out as the lather will dry before you are half done. If the lather is drying on your face you needed more water while lathering in the bowl. In a sense the lather will make your face look like the Mona Lisa before you're half done shaving.

Thin lather, watered down, generally has a itty bitty pool of water at the bottom of the bowl. If you pay attention to the lather it will also have larger bubbles and when you get a little peak (think meringue pie peaks) and it folds over, this means you need to lather it more. Just keep going swirling the brush making lather but do not add more cream/soap. Also, if you advance to applying the lather to your face the lather will make a sound like Rice Crispies (popping of the bubbles) and can be a little translucent.

Ideally you want the lather to be thick-ish. Think meringue pie peaks except the peak will not fold over if the brush is held vertical. The lather doesn't dry up quickly when shaving leaving you with a crust like appearance. You cannot see through the lather and doesn't make the Rice Crispies (bubble popping sound).

When I mentored a friend I recommended he practice lathering frequently even if he wasn't going to shave. Use a cream that isn't super expensive such as Proraso or CO Bigelow. Lathering is somewhere between a science and art.

This is just my experience and I'm sure others will have more information. :)

Thanks guys, I actually just got done with a lathering practice, I ended up using the soap disk at the bottom of the mug, instead of trying to use the mug and the soap in seperate bowls, and kind of compromised between building it in the mug and on my face. For the first time though I think i got the right consistancy, didn't dry off my face super fast and it felt creamy. I think maybe since I got it right this way with the disk in the mug that means I wasn't loading the brush with enough soap(?) when I was trying to keep them seperate. Now if I could just remember how exactly I did it... :) Great tip on the rice crispies thing, I noticed that earlier & now I know it's wrong.

As a fellow beginner, the easiest way for me to tell my lather is getting dry is when it stops rinsing instantly off the razor. If I have to hold it there for a second I know it's time to add a little water & lather back up. That's no substitute for learning how to get it right from the beginning (I'm still working on that bit) but it serves as a good signal during the shave.

Have you tried making lather with bottled drinking water? (We ARE getting bottled drinking water to you, aren't we?)

I mix my lather in a bowl, and aim for a yoghurt consistency. I add five drops of glycerin in the winter, since the air here is so dry... that helps extend the lather's age on my face. I lather my whole face and neck at once, shave everything except my mustache and chin (from lower lips to jawline, and corners of my mouth down). Those are difficult areas, so with the rest of my face done I rinse everything then relather the leftover spots. I think the "pretreatment" helps, plus the rest of my face seems to like the rinse. And I'm not left doing the toughest spots with old dried lather.

Thanks for serving, good luck over there, and I'm glad you've found a way to while away some time.

Best wishes to you.

I'm not a huge fan of the VDH brush and soap but other than my preferences there isn't anything wrong with them. They will make a good lather with hard water. The VDH soap is one of the few that will lather for me no matter what water I'm using.
Your use of free time to practice lather making is great. Practice makes perfect and I think most folks spend some time the first month or so just making bowls of lather until they get it right.

Since nobody has mentioned the pinch test yet, I will ;). It's an easy way to tell if your lather is in the ballpark. Once you've got your lather going just pinch a bit of it between your thumb and forefinger. Then sowly pull them apart. If it takes an inch or more of separation before the lather breaks apart you're in good shape. If it takes less than an inch figure out of it's too wet or dry and either add water or soap and mix it back up and test it again.

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Originally Posted by Logistics

There are some videos showing members lathering. If you watch carefully you can see when they add water when it's too thick.

Thick lather that needs water has little to no suds or foam in the bowl when lathering. If you advance to applying that lather to your face it will be easy to figure out as the lather will dry before you are half done. If the lather is drying on your face you needed more water while lathering in the bowl. In a sense the lather will make your face look like the Mona Lisa before you're half done shaving.

Thin lather, watered down, generally has a itty bitty pool of water at the bottom of the bowl. If you pay attention to the lather it will also have larger bubbles and when you get a little peak (think meringue pie peaks) and it folds over, this means you need to lather it more. Just keep going swirling the brush making lather but do not add more cream/soap. Also, if you advance to applying the lather to your face the lather will make a sound like Rice Crispies (popping of the bubbles) and can be a little translucent.

Ideally you want the lather to be thick-ish. Think meringue pie peaks except the peak will not fold over if the brush is held vertical. The lather doesn't dry up quickly when shaving leaving you with a crust like appearance. You cannot see through the lather and doesn't make the Rice Crispies (bubble popping sound).

When I mentored a friend I recommended he practice lathering frequently even if he wasn't going to shave. Use a cream that isn't super expensive such as Proraso or CO Bigelow. Lathering is somewhere between a science and art.

This is just my experience and I'm sure others will have more information. :)

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Just a tip on posting. See the way the above quoted poster broke a long post by hitting the enter key every so often ? Makes it much easier to comfortably read a long post such as your first one.

As to lathering. Don't feel like the lone ranger. I've been doing this for years, watched the videos , have a plethora of soaps and a few creams. A gaggle of brushes .... badger ... boar .... high end, mid range and cheap. I've never been completely satisfied with my lather. It takes a lot of trial and error to finally begin to get satisfactory results IME.

The water you're getting out of your tap will also effect the outcome. For me , having began as a face latherer .... from puck to face ..... I found that loading the brush and going to the lather bowl is better for me. I put my brush in water for a few minutes after spilling some on the surface of the puck. When I'm ready to shave I pour the contents off the top of the puck into the lather bowl.

I begin twirling the loaded brush in the bowl and, if I need more water, I dip my fingers into the container the brush was soaking in and sprinkle more. A little may go a long way. Finally, I probably twirl the brush 100 times (I count) before I feel the lather is of the proper consistency. :gl:

Thanks for the tips everyone!

I'd never heard or read of the pinch test, that'll change things up a bit today. I'd been wondering if there was a tactile way to tell besides what "seems good". Pictures are worth a thousand words, but you can't feel a pic.

And yes, this has been a wonderful use of time over here. Even though I'm busy most of the day, during down time there's not much to do besides look at the mountains. It's nice to be able to try something that will take some effort, and will pay out dividends. I'm already getting closer shaves than I was with any other type of razor, and i'm sure the comfort will come along with time.

Again, thanks for all the great input. Looking forward to being a part of the forums, also. Seems like it's a gold mine of knowledge.

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Originally Posted by BobH

I don't want to answer for Gammaray but from my own experience making lather if you use too much water it will be thin and runny. You put it on and it wants to slide down your face literally. You can have a thick lather but it does not have enough water in it and drys out too quickly. When you are making lather you are walking a fine line between having too much or too little water mixed with your soap.

You could also be building a decent lather but shaving slowly enough that if you cover your whole face with lather parts of it will dry out before you get to them, been guilty of that one. You could try lathering only a portion of your face at one time and then go to the next section you want to do.

Bob

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Well said Bob. That sweet spot is different for various soaps and creams, but the consistency that we all strive for is creamy on the face yet still easy to rinse off the blade.

It takes a LOT longer to learn to lather well in hard water. I have ultra-hard well water, and remember finding lathering a bit frustrating at first, too. The VDH soap is okay, though not amazing, and actually does better than some soaps do in hard water. Using a LOT of product as suggested is indeed the way to go. My personal opinion on the brush is that their boar brushes are, IMO pretty dreadful.

Anyhow, If you don't mind a used brush and soap/cream, and are able to receive mail out there, pm me your APO address, and I'll see what I have laying around that is PIF worthy.

Plwolfe,

I am new to straight razors but I have been using the VDH kit with my safety razors for 2 years now. The best way for me to get a consistent lather is to:
1) put HOT water on the soap for a few minutes, also soak the brush in hot water (usually while I am showering)
2) pour the water off the soap, shake the brush out 2 times, and DIG into the soap fairly hard for about a minute.
3) generate the lather on your face, I get much more consistent results on my face rather than using the bowl.

I dont know about other people here, but I have never gotten a foamy lather from VDH. It is more of a creamy lather. It will be very smooth and the razor will glide effortlessly. Im not the best at explaining things, but I hope this helps you a little.

Ron

Ron

I bowl lather but do like you do and put a little hot water on top of hard soap or the semi hard soaps like Cella. Instead of pouring out the water from on top of the soap it goes into the lathering bowl. Load the brush like you do but build lather in the bowl. I have also done what you do and it works equally well for me. I think the trick is to add the hot water on top of the soap with either method. Seems to make a big difference to me with or without the water on top first.

Bob

Lately I've been filling my soap mug with hot water, soaking the brush under the faucet & letting it sit in the bowl. Stay like that during the first hot towel, then I pour off the extra water & my brush is now full of soapy hot water instead of just hot water. Doing it that way seems to have helped a lot & makes it easier to load it up & lather on my face between towels.

Roughkype hit the nail on the head.:beer1: It's the water!!!!! Bottled water is better but if you know someone with a softener, get a couple of gallons from them and you'll see an AMAZING difference in not only in your ability to make loads of foam in just seconds but your shave will feel 10X better without any nicks as the Na ions in the soft water create that slick, slippery feel that is great for wet shaving.

Like Jimmy, I've been doing this a while, and have many different soaps, creams, brushes, etc...One saying we have around here is "YMMV" (your mileage may vary) And lather making is certainly no exception. You mentioned trying some Truefitt and Hill shave cream. I highly recommend it, that or some Taylor of old Bond St. Taylor's may be a bit less expensive.

T&H is in my regular rotation of shave creams. Quite a few of our members like and use Van Der Hagen soap. Not me, I don't care for it. I bought it to try, used it once, now it's under the counter somewhere. Trying something different may be beneficial to you. T&H lather's great. You should have no trouble at all. Everyone winds up with one or two soaps or creams they don't like or don't work well for them.

Put an almond size dollop of shave cream in a scuttle, or bowl, soak your brush if you like, if not, wet it, then shake your wet brush good, once. Then begin building lather. At first it should look like a cream spread around the inside of the bowl, Add small amounts of water, slowly, like a teaspoon at a time until you get a feel for it. Don't be afraid to "push and swirl" your brush. This will help you build lather. You should have a bowl full of lather in no time.

Also, Check out youtube, "Mantic59" He has some great videos on lather building....

Good luck....

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Originally Posted by bharner

I'm not a huge fan of the VDH brush and soap but other than my preferences there isn't anything wrong with them. They will make a good lather with hard water. The VDH soap is one of the few that will lather for me no matter what water I'm using.
Your use of free time to practice lather making is great. Practice makes perfect and I think most folks spend some time the first month or so just making bowls of lather until they get it right.

Since nobody has mentioned the pinch test yet, I will ;). It's an easy way to tell if your lather is in the ballpark. Once you've got your lather going just pinch a bit of it between your thumb and forefinger. Then sowly pull them apart. If it takes an inch or more of separation before the lather breaks apart you're in good shape. If it takes less than an inch figure out of it's too wet or dry and either add water or soap and mix it back up and test it again.

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How do YOU figure out if there's too much or little water after you do that pinch test?

I also pay attention to the size of the suds/bubbles in my lather. Should they be nice and tiny? Or should I not see any bubbles/suds at all.

Im also going to try and not use pre-shave oil, see if that prevents it from drying on my face more.

If it won't pull apart far enough did the lather break because it is too stiff or because it slopped down my fingers because it is too wet? That's how I work it. If it was too stiff I add a couple more drops of water and whip it some more. If it slopped out I add soap or start over.

For the bubble part, some like it different ways but uniform size is most important. Lather is just soap and air with enough water to hold it all together. You definitely don't want dish soap sized bubbles in it.

Pre-shave oil can greatly impact your lather. I use T&H pres-have oil from time to time and it works well. However, I have tried a few other kinds and whatever oils or additives were in them had a tendency to "eat" my lather

Thanks bharner for the clarification. Very helpful! Will do some more practicing tonight :)

Good luck. Every water/soap combo is different. I have really hard water and have to use more soap than most folks would to get my lather to hold together. I often end up with a thinner lather but it holds together well and does the job.

Ideally you're looking for something along the lines of uncooked meringue or thick whipped cream but other consistencies will do the trick as some water and soap combos don't play nice.

I almost replied to this last night, but decided to wait for someone more knowledgeable to weigh in. bharner was the person in particular I was waiting for. I'll just add a little about bubble size.

I like to whip the lather until the bubbles are almost microscopic. The lather takes on a sheen at this point, almost pearlescent. If pressed, I could make up a mechanical/logical reason for this preference, but it'd probably be 90% BS. If nothing else, it's a consistent endpoint for me, and one I don't think I can reach if I've started with too much water.

Whip it good. Put about 4 or 5 drops glycirine on the puck. Add water by dipping the tips of your brush in it and going to the mug. Keep adding water in this manner and stir it unmercifully. Get it like you like it. Above all, avoid the soaking of the whole brush before use. If you soak anything, put the water 1/2 inch above the puck and set the brush in there. Only the tips! The shafts of the hairs sould not be soaked to retain their stiffness and ability to keep the shape of the brush. Otherwise, all you have is a wet mop! All there is to it! JMO ;)

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

Whip it good.

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OK, I'll bite...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIEVqFB4WUo

Someone had to post that :)

I would give bottled water a try, if your shower water is anything like we had in Iraq it is quite a pain to get great lather (but it can be done). The water in Iraq had some bleach like product to clean it, making it hard.

My thanks to the OP for holding it down if Afghanistan, been there OEF V 2004-2005 (Kandahar), and also for asking this question. I would also like to thank all of the knowledgeable posters, because I am going to need the same advice when my kit arrives. I am in a less hostile theater now with fine water that you can drink from the tap. When I was in Kandahar the shower water was so heavily treated it would seem like it took off you first layer of skin.

I can't seem to find it but when I was having problems with the lather, I ran across a Youtube video of someone making a lather and intentionally adding more and more water. You can see the point where he adds too much water. I found it very helpful - I just can't find it now!!

"Above all, avoid the soaking of the whole brush before use."
This is something I'm going to have to try because I've been having some issues lately with getting a good lather.
Thanks for the info, and I'll post when I've tried it.