New Steel vs Vintage Steel

So for the last month, I've been trying a little experiment, and tonight, I think I came to a conclusion, at least for myself.

I've been swapping between using new blades, like a Revisor, new TI's, Dovo, against using vintage blades, old TI, W&B, Wilkinson, etc...and it seems to me, I get a far superior shave from the vintage steel in the older blades.

What settled it for me absolutely was my last two shaves, both razors had been recently professionally honed.

The vintage blade left my face feeling smooth as silk, and I went for a BBS shave, WTG, XTG and all over ATG. Face was like glass. 9/10

Today, I used a new production blade, did the same BBS shave routine, and while the shave is fine, comfort level was much lower, and the result was not consistent all over the face, could feel some stubbly areas where I couldn't with the vintage steel. I'd rate the shave 7.5/10.

This may be obvious to some members here, but would like to hear opinions and whether the manner of making the type of steel used in these vintage blades is truly lost, or what other factor, at least IMO, seems to be a significant difference in the shave of vintage vs new production razors?

Cheers!

Don't know a thing about different steels nor do I have many current manufacture razors, exactly one in a field of 30 odd vintage ones. Can't say I have felt any conclusive and significant difference between old and new. On any given day some shave better than others but there are too many variables for me to draw any conclusions.

Bob

All my razors are vintage too, so I cannot really compare.

I have both. At this point I'm on the fence because so much of it is mood dependent, I can shave two days in a row with the same blade and get a different effect each day. The difference between a very fine shave and a extra smooth shave is very small. It is close enough that I couldn't call it. Happy shaving!

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Originally Posted by Phrank

So for the last month, I've been trying a little experiment, and tonight, I think I came to a conclusion, at least for myself.

I've been swapping between using new blades,...(and)...the vintage steel .... blades.
....snip...

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Your personal shave test results are the result of a long list of things.
Your face, your whiskers, the way you strop, the way you lather....

The key is that what works for you is the right answer for you.

One important point is for a razor to have survived 100 years
multiple people needed to like it. If it was a stinker it would
be used to cut musket patches, leather, hammer nails... make
rusty red paint.

Some knife folk comment that old steel is often better
than new steel. Something about slow strain relief and
the fact that hardened steel is not stable at room temperature
and 100 years of room temperature lets the grain mellow.

Me I find good modern steel to be darn fine stuff.

Keep them all in rotation and refresh them on a modern
ultra fine waterstone (approx 10K) gently once a month
or so and they will all shine for you.

I also have only vintage, so I can't comment. But I'd like to stay tuned to this thread. very interesting.

Great post. I have been wondering the samething about old vs new. It will be interesting to see what others have to say. I can not chime in on this discussion since I have not acquired a vintage blade yet.

First thing I thought of was blade width and personal technique between the razors you listed. If you have honed a million razors I would think you may be able to tell the difference. But the shave test has too many variables to be able to feel the difference in my opinion. Psychological difference maybe, yes.

Steel does not equal steel.

The alloy compositions you are comparing might have significant differences. While time may be a factor, the hardness and composition combined with suitability of the honing techniques, may be far greater contributions to what you observe.

Just a speculation, but I'd guess that a great razor from 100 years ago has a better chance of surviving and finding a home in your rotation...are the new razors you are using "great razors"? Will they be recognized as such in 100 years?

This is a tough one for me. There are definite differences between some so my razors in how they feel but I don't know if the age of the steel has anything to do with it. And I probably wouldn't be on the fence if it were not for my Revisor 7/8. I've described it before as feeling like vintage steel. Mt two TIs are great but they feel somewhat different than my other vintage razors. Ok so the grind is heavier on the TIs but not heavier than my W&B FBU. Yet the FBU feels different. It's a mellowness that the new ones seem not to have....except for the Revisor 7/8. There may be a difference but I'm not sure that age is the factor.

I have mostly vintage and only 3 modern ones, and after 1 year of shaving with a straight razor, I can't really tell a difference. I can feel a difference between grinds,but not between old and new steel. I guess this will come in a few more years of shaving with straights.

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Originally Posted by HARRYWALLY

I also have only vintage, so I can't comment. But I'd like to stay tuned to this thread. very interesting.

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........ +1

I have a mix of both and it is hard to say. If a newly mfgd razor is honed "right" I get a shave equal to a vintage razor that is honed "right." OTOH, if they ain't honed right I don't get as good a shave. I've had vintage razors that honed up easily and new razors that were likewise. Than again I've had some that were tough to get 'there'.

As far as knives go, my old Case XX (1940-1964) or Case Tested XX (1920-1940) seem to me to be superior in ease of sharpening, edge holding and cutting ability than their later production (after 1970 or so) and superior to other brands such as Puma, Buck, Gerber, Queen ........ etcetera. IME.

So many variables,

i have both and love both. I can feel difference between different grinds and blade width but not in the quality of the steel. My absolute favourite is a new blade, but it's results are variable day to day due to the idiot holding the thing….

Enjoy :)

I know that steel made early 1900 and before 1900 was a softer steel I guess this would make for a kinder/smoother shave. The downside for me though is my stubble is like cheese wire so I seem to need to refresh vintage blades quicker!

It's a very bold statement to make blanket assessments of metal alloys made in different mfg facilities and forges across multiple nations and continents-regardless of time frame.

now isn't it?

I like the old stuff, but have only experienced one modern and it was rost-frei, which generally detracts somewhat from high-carbon steel qualities.

I'm not so sure we can accurately assess our razors without "blind" testing them. That's the only way to get our "heart" out of our head for a true assessment.

Witness every new shaver comes along posting up and telling us all about the xyz razor he bought. He is emotionally invested in that razor and he's going to _want_ to love it...

lather up!

I agree with Wade. I have primarily vintage razors and they differ substantially between manufacturer and country of origin. I think the only way you could fairly test whether older razors have steel different from modern razors is with a much bigger sample size of razors than most of us own. Phrank, from what I gather, may have enough razors but I suspect the rest of us probably don't.

P.S. I didn't see that Phrank was the OP. That being the case you probably can't tell from comparisons between different manufactures on one to one tests. You'd have to average across a lot of razors to make sure that it isn't just differences in manufacturers that's accounting for what you're noticing. Better yet if you have a bunch of razors of different age from the same manufacturer - compare those but that would just allow you to make a claim that in the case of that manufacturer age matters. If you're doing a large sample with numerous manufacturers you may be able to draw a more general conclusion but with much less certainty.

Good question Phrank...

I do prefer the 'vintage blades'...personally I prefer the heavier, older Sheffield wedge type profile than the more modern lighter hollow grounds. I prefer Sheffield over Solingen or American steel. When honing I think a Coticule / Escher finish on the 'softer Sheffield's' creates a superior edge. With the German and American steels I think a JNAT finish is hard to beat.

Of course this all subjective and anecdotal, based on my personal experience only, but I do have enough different razors to have an opinion. Metallurgically speaking I don't have a clue...

Then...having said this...I'll pick up one of my Fillarmonica's or Puma's or Bokers, a Fritz Bracht Dovo, or even a nice Torrey, and I'll swear it's the best shave I've ever had!

So...who the 'F...' knows? :shrug:

WP34

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Originally Posted by SuperSpeedRacer

I agree with Wade. I have primarily vintage razors and they differ substantially between manufacturer and country of origin. I think the only way you could fairly test whether older razors have steel different from modern razors is with a much bigger sample size of razors than most of us own. Phrank, from what I gather, may have enough razors but I suspect the rest of us probably don't.

P.S. I didn't see that Phrank was the OP. That being the case you probably can't tell from comparisons between different manufactures on one to one tests. You'd have to average across a lot of razors to make sure that it isn't just differences in manufacturers that's accounting for what you're noticing. Better yet if you have a bunch of razors of different age from the same manufacturer - compare those but that would just allow you to make a claim that in the case of that manufacturer age matters. If you're doing a large sample with numerous manufacturers you may be able to draw a more general conclusion but with much less certainty.

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Hahaha - I have 23 blades, a nice mix of sizes, ages and grinds, no two are alike, you'd have to look to other members if you're looking for a substantial amount of razors of similar manufacture and grind to test.

Guess my question was a tad more of a sweeping generalization than I meant it. I like the idea that for a razor to have lasted 100+ years, it was obviously a keeper, and some blades made today may be around as well 100 years from now(thanks niftyshaving). Also, the idea of the steel mellowing with age made some sense.

And of course personal preference, the psychological factor of favoring one over another.

So, to be clearer, it seems with the blades I have, for instance, the vintage TI frameback gave me a much better shave than a new TI Eagle, both 5/8th and both hollow ground. Granted, that's totally subjective, someone else could feel the opposite. So, can there be two camps? An actual preference for old steel vs new, or new vs old, or is it simply a mixed bag, and across the board some are good and some are not so good, regardless of age? There physically is little measurable difference?

Cheers!

edited to add: thanks Wolfpack34 ^ - that kinda sums it up perfectly! '-)

They are all nice....just some are nicer than others :)

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Originally Posted by markbignosekelly

I know that steel made early 1900 and before 1900 was a softer steel I guess this would make for a kinder/smoother shave. The downside for me though is my stubble is like cheese wire so I seem to need to refresh vintage blades quicker!

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As others noted generalizations are a bigish risk.

I have an opinion that regional vintage razors tend to match the available natural hones.

Old natural hones would be rare if great and variable by modern hone standards.

The other subtle difference is how an edge responds to the strop.

I mention this because steel can work harden and the thin cutting
edge and the bulk hardness of the steel are unlikely to be the same.

Most modern hones cut steel to shape while many old hones
tend to take advantage of the malleability of steel. The result
is an edge that has been worked more than abraded (think clay
being pushed into shape or cut into shape). The best slate (rare)
finishers excel at this.

After the hone there is strop technology. The strop interacts
with what the hone presents. Old and modern strop methods
are all over the map. Today we talk about pasted strops following
modern ultra fine hones which is "interesting" because old school
strops were often more abrasive than modern finishing hones.

So old steel, modern steel, hard or soft(er) steel all good when
honed and stropped in the right way.

At this point confusion should abound!
My only advice is to take advantage of modern ultra fine hones
(8k or finer what ever you have) and gently maintain your good edge.
Perhaps once or twice a month. Then strop with a clean strop and
use modern sub micron abrasive to lighten/ adjust the draw to make
a light hand on the strop easy.