Information about origin "Orihi" kamisori?

Hi there!

A while ago there was a thread about "Orihi" kamisori:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...sori-help.html

After my first

Attachment 173788

I've ordered a second one

Attachment 173782Attachment 173783

and also required a bit more information below,
if someone knows more information about these strange things, please share it :) ,
especially how old they are, most sources say from the "Edo period", that is: 1603 - 1867,
Sources below suggest the same:

Attachment 173784
Attachment 173786

Edo period Artist Kitagawa Utamaro I, Japanese,
first: (?)–1806,
second: 1801


Attachment 173785

A Whetstone with a Razor, and an Envelope for a Present
Unidentified Artist
Period: Edo period (1615–1868)
Date: 1811
Culture: Japan


Attachment 173789

shaving the top of Fukuroku's head,
Toyokuni Utagawa III, Artist, 1857



During the Heian period (794 to 1185 A.D.!)
the practice of okimayu (置眉 or おきまゆ) began.
This involved the shaving off the eyebrows and replacing them
with fake ones painted on higher up on the forehead.
It lasted, in one form or another until
well into the Edo period.
Attachment 173787
Link:

Kesa thru Kodansha

Thanks for these pictures. I've been looking for photos of old kamisori like this, but never seen any.

As for kamisori, I've read that their style has been around for thousands of years, originally made for monks to shave their heads. Because of the difficulty in getting good steel in ancient Japan, the inside of a kamisori is made of low quality steel, to give it some bulk, and then only the outside has good steel. Because of this, they generally don't last as long as a western straight, though could still outlast a person.

The kamisoris also have am uneven grind, giving it a better edge. Some people say that only one side should be used, as shaving was done by a barber or a wife, while others say that they are made to be used on both sides. I personally think that they were supposed to be used by one person on another, but made so that one person could do it to themself, using both sides, if no one else was around.

Tamahagane is the highest quality steel available in Japan. It's usually reserved specifically for the traditional and best craftsmen, traditionally used for making samurai swords. It's made by smelting black sand from certain beaches. As it's such a prestigious steel, I think a western equivalent would be damascus, any item made from it would be stamped with it, as a selling point. Because of that, I don't think the one you have is tamahagane.

There may be some mistakes in what I've said, but when some if the more experienced members turn up, they'll be able to answer any questions you have.

I'm on my phone tight now, but if you put "kamisori monks" into Google and click the first and this links, there's some good information there. Should be sharpologist and easternsmooth.

That kamisori in the last pic actually looks double bladed... Can anyone confirm this?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amenrab

I don't think the one you have is tamahagane.

That kamisori in the last pic actually looks double bladed... Can anyone confirm this?

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Indeed, I am aware it wouldn't be Tamahagane, was just on the pic...
But I think there are 2 distinct different styles, types of kamisori, the one "everybody" knows and the "Orihi" style, which are just 2 straight planes, as seen in the pics, with one edge.

I think the last, and other pics, are all examples of this style, and that is why I've shown you these pics, which would indicate that the "Orihi" style kamisori is an very old style, before the types we all know now, with rounded curves and hollowed ura and hollowed omote

at least, that's what I think...
Thank you for the information that is brought, very interesting!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Amenrab

Tamahagane is the highest quality steel available in Japan. It's usually reserved specifically for the traditional and best craftsmen, traditionally used for making samurai swords. It's made by smelting black sand from certain beaches. As it's such a prestigious steel, I think a western equivalent would be damascus, any item made from it would be stamped with it, as a selling point. Because of that, I don't think the one you have is tamahagane.

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Tamahagane is NOT the best steel produced by Japan, at one time it was but not now. Japan does produce some very good steels though.

Tamahagane's appeal is that it is a high carbon steel produced in a traditional way. So if it's a traditional kamasori you are after then one made of tamahagane is as close as you are going to get to replicate a razor made in ancient times :)

I can certainly understand it's appeal as most of us here are into traditional things but times change and the chaps at Hitachi would certainly have a thing to say about who makes the best steel :D

Hi there,

my second one has arrived!

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After some cleaning, I discovered folded steel!
Attachment 174478Attachment 174479Attachment 174480

Sorry for the scratches and difficult visibility, but the waved cloudy lines should be clear I think

Now I wonder, these Orihi kamisori's are old!
Is it possible they were made in a time kamisori were always made of Tamahagane, or some type of folded steel,
and if it was, couldn't that be a reason there is no Tamahagane mark?
After all, the samurai swords didn't have a Tamahagane mark either,
is was evident what material was used then...

I really don't know... Just an idea...

Some more information I gathered of the history of Orihi:

https://historyrazors.wordpress.com/...type-kamisori/

I've never bought into this idea the razors were made to be used for shaving another person. Most of the pictures we see like the ones in this thread are folks being groomed and the razor is being used everywhere but for shaving the beard. Also most pictures show shaving nobility and the well healed and like the U.S most folks like that either go to a barber (or went) or have a servant to do it for them. I think the idea millions of Japanese had to have someone else shave them makes no sense.

I think sometimes we see something we don't understand and try and put our experiences into play to understand it and those experiences might be totally alien to the item we are observing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I've never bought into this idea the razors were made to be used for shaving another person. Most of the pictures we see like the ones in this thread are folks being groomed and the razor is being used everywhere but for shaving the beard.

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Yes indeed, "Most of the pictures we see like the ones in this thread are folks being groomed and the razor is being used everywhere but for shaving the beard“, but "Robber Ishikawa Goemon Shaving”, artist, Kuniyoshi (1797-1861), 1851 and “Mustache shaving, opposite mirrors, laughing child, crying child” , artist: Kobayashi Kiyochika, 1883 shows us the use of the Orihi for shaving THE BEARD.

You can see the rest as references to find the right time frame when they were made…

Here's a few interesting google-oid facts.

Japanese men are generally not hirsute types & due to beards being fashionable in the Edo period (some 260 years) fake facial hair was sold.
The Meiji restoration also saw Japanese men embrace the beard. So for hundreds of years of Japanese history, men simply did not shave.

Single bevel tools take a screaming sharp edge & are easy to maintain that way as opposed to a double bevel. This is the reason J/kitchen knives, chisels & razors are constructed that way. There are even single bevel machetes in Japan tho the double bevel is generally considered more sturdy & was used for military weapons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Here's a few interesting google-oid facts.

Japanese men are generally not hirsute types & due to beards being fashionable in the Edo period (some 260 years) fake facial hair was sold.
The Meiji restoration also saw Japanese men embrace the beard. So for hundreds of years of Japanese history, men simply did not shave.

Single bevel tools take a screaming sharp edge & are easy to maintain that way as opposed to a double bevel. This is the reason J/kitchen knives, chisels & razors are constructed that way. There are even single bevel machetes in Japan tho the double bevel is generally considered more sturdy & was used for military weapons.

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Indeed, I've read this as well, although some Japanese works do show shaven men
(maybe it was in the later Edo period, I don't know...)

For example this work, Portrait of a man of noble birth with a book,
made by Katsushika Hokusai (1760-1849), clearly shows a shaven beard:

Attachment 237830
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chonmage
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...ith_a_book.jpg

To be clear, I do not want to proof that Japanese men were shaven earlier, far from it, for now I had only 2 goals:

The first goal was to proof that men were indeed shaven in the past with Orihi,
I think I have proven this with the woodblock prints of 1851 & 1883, maybe also with the print of 1842 (not sure about that)

The second goal was merely to set a timeframe where the Orihi was used.
Yes, most probably it was used primarily for head and eyebrow shaving, and not for beard shaving,
but I used this information only to proof how old the Orihi could be.

Meaning, when looking to a Orihi, one can now say it once was used for shaving
(maybe most of the time not primarily, but still), and it could be made in the 19th century,
or even older, 18th century or older)

I've seen such single bevel machetes, they look really nice! And yes, the single bevel can get screaming sharp! :tu

i havent read the thread fully yet but most folding lines on kamisori is watetsu iron which looks like tamahagane as they are made at the same time.

It is usually vintage ship or bridge or building iron they repurpose. I thought it was folded steel my first watetsu razor but kamisori are 90℅ iron, only a very thin sheet of steel for just the edge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fikira

Indeed, I've read this as well, although some Japanese works do show shaven men
(maybe it was in the later Edo period, I don't know...)

For example this work, Portrait of a man of noble birth with a book,
made by Katsushika Hokusai (1760-1849), clearly shows a shaven beard:

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What looks like a 5'oclock shadow there could really be a 2 week growth ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

What looks like a 5'oclock shadow there could really be a 2 week growth ;)

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:D Meaning that he was shaven 2 weeks ago :p;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DireStraights

i havent read the thread fully yet but most folding lines on kamisori is watetsu iron which looks like tamahagane as they are made at the same time.

It is usually vintage ship or bridge or building iron they repurpose. I thought it was folded steel my first watetsu razor but kamisori are 90℅ iron, only a very thin sheet of steel for just the edge.

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Yes, indeed, I learned a lot since my earlier replies, the Watetsu is always on the Omote side, never the Ura (steel is too soft), and yes, Tamahagane would only be used at the Ura side as a welded thin plate of steel (and mostly without the folding lines)

That is my major disappointment with tamahagane razors. Not a single one i've seen has visible grain. Give me a damascus or watetsu razor any day.

Exception being Iwasaki westerns, that hamon is gorgeous when etched. Who needs folding with that...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fikira

:D Meaning that he was shaven 2 weeks ago :p;)

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Now the question is, who shaved him ? ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Now the question is, who shaved him ? ;)

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:roflmao:tu