is this Dovo razor deficient?

I'm new to straight razors as of two months ago. My first razor was a Feather, and that's what I've learned shaving with. I purchased a brand new Dovo Prima Silver Steel razor from an online vendor, and I think it's deficient. This being my first "real" straight razor, however, I acknowledge that I may just not know enough to be able to make such a pronouncement.

Here's the symptom: there's a spot about 3/4" or so from the heel end of the edge that won't take the bevel that's established both before it and after it on one side of the blade. The reason is that the blade seems to have been ground too much at that one spot during its manufacture, such that there just isn't metal where the blade bevel should be on that one side in that one spot.

Here are some photos. The first shows the lack of bevel in that one narrow region of the edge. The next two catch the light reflections so as to show that there is a slight depression in the steel of the blade right at that location due to too much grinding when the blade was produced.

The spine wear reflects my efforts over the last week and a half to get it properly honed and shave ready. At first I didn't really know what I was looking at, but as I've studied this edge, read posts here on this forum, watched Youtube videos by Lynn Abrams and others on honing, bevel setting, etc., I've been able to understand better what I'm looking at, and from that I've concluded that this razor was sold to me with a manufacturing flaw.

1) Do you guys agree that the blade was overground when it was produced and that with this flaw it won't be possible to achieve a good shaveable edge on this razor?

2) If you agree with 1), have you guys worked with Dovo before on returns or replacements, and how are they to work with?

-or-

3) Should I be going back to the vendor who sold me this razor back in June or early July (I was away on military training when I bought it, and wasn't able to start working on honing until I came home two weeks ago) to ask for a replacement or refund?


Attachment 176456Attachment 176457Attachment 176458

Did YOU hone this blade?
To me it looks like whomever did hone it went to far back and is hitting the stabilizer.
This WILL create a weird angle and could cause the issue you are having.
You can also start to see the beginning of a heel hook forming.

I am NO expert but this is what I see...
Attachment 176459

Have you determined that the two sides of the edge at this point are in fact not meeting and therefore not becoming sharp, or are you just going off visuals and assuming this to be the case? Is it definitely not sharp there?

James.

You won't be dealing with Dovo. it should go back to the vendor who sold it to you provided you have not done any honing yourself. if you did then you own it. Otherwise a defective blade bought new should go back.

Go buy a micrometer or get an engineer to measure that section with one. They should be able to measure an overgrind pretty easily with one.

Then I would contact dovo directly. And explain the problem and delay in actually getting to see the razor. And the measurements.

DOVO - Masterpieces in steel - DOVO in Solingen -

I really don't know a great deal about honing, but that spine wear looks pretty uneven.

I think your out of luck with a return,that blade has been severly abused,good luck tho.

Yes I honed this blade, and quite a few times over the past week and a half or so, attempting to master it. I'm not surprised if the blade looks "abused". Everyone who hones a blade once honed their first. And this is mine.

However, the flat spot on the blade is not flat due to my honing. This is clearly obvious when looking at it through a loupe, and I think it's fairly clear in my photos, particularly the first one. The grind marks from the manufacturer are still clearly visible, undisturbed, through that flat section. It's obvious that it was flat when I got it.

It took me a week or so to really see this flat area, as opposed to just looking at it. Being new to straight razors, it's taken some sharpening and examining experience to really start zeroing in on details that would likely be obvious at a glance to the old hands.

When looking at the edge under a loupe, what I see is the bevel thinning out to where for a short distance in that flat area it essentially disappears. The first image I posted demonstrates this fairly well.

Here's another image, from a different angle.Attachment 176467

Honing is not difficult until you have a problem...then there are 100's of things it could be.
There is a reason people send there razors to professionals to be honed.

It looks to me like because of going up onto the stabilizer that you have created a "rocking" effect that will leave the condition that your blade is in now. Could it be fixed easily?

YES...but by someone who KNOWS EXACTLY what the problem is and how to fix it.
Could you fix it yourself?... YOU BET YOU CAN! :tu .... but it might take you a while... and some good advice (which is being given to you) to sort out what is wrong.

I would personally use some tape on the spine so as not to cause any more damage to it and REALLY watch some of the videos again or better yet try and find someone local that does honing to see if you can take it to them and learn what is going on.

The people on this board are the MOST HELPFUL and knowledgeable that I have come across and I bet someone would be willing to help you. You are a brave man for learning to hone on such a nice blade. My first couple were flea market finds and I will tell you I beat them up! I am getting better and am happy with the edges I put on them now but I KNOW I could do MUCH better. The key is to "listen" to what the blade is telling you that it wants or needs in order to perform it's best.

Good Luck with it. I KNOW you can get it straightened out and shaving again. :tu
Attachment 176469

Since you are apparently sol on returning it because you have attempted to hone it, the easiest way out is to send it for a pro corrective honing. The other is to continue to try and hone the trouble spot out. If you go that route try honing heel forward to keep off the stabilizer. You may eventually get a bevel set all the way across but it will be wider at the heel. Feel free to disregard that as I am no expert at honing. Out of curiosity is the other side of the blade the same?

Bob

i bet one of the pro honers can fix it for you that way it might save some steel that you will wear away, hitting that stabilizer hasn't helped, take a break and send it off to be fixed and then see about maintaining the blade after that good luck tc

I am in the unenviable position here of appearing to be the newb who is arguing with the old hands telling them how it is. That being said, the consensus here seems to be that the flat spot was caused by me honing too far over onto the heel, and that simply is not so. When viewing it directly through a loupe it is obvious, but trying to photograph grind marks on a steel blade is tricky, and so please indulge me yet one more time with another attempt to show it. I went back down to my lair and adjusted the razor, the lamp, and my camera on a tripod until I could get a shot that shows the original grind marks on the blade, undisturbed all the way out to the edge.

Look at this photo. The red arrows point to the area where the flat spot is. The area I'm talking about is where the bevel thins out to nonexistence. Look at my previous photos to see the flat spot from another angle that shows how the blade thins out in that area. This photo clearly shows the original final surface of the blade as it was shipped to me, all the way out to the edge. If I had caused the flat spot by honing too far out onto the heel, these manufacturing grind marks would have been obliterated.

One idea I have is to try to push the edge toward the other side a little by building up the spine on this side of the blade with a layer or two of electrical tape and then honing the blade a little on a coarser stone, like a 1000-1500, while not honing at all on the other side. The bevel on the other side is consistent all along the edge since the flat spot is only on one side of the blade. If I honed just this side a little more I could "push" the edge over far enough toward the other side until I got a discrete bevel showing on both sides of the blade all the way down the blade. Then just hit the polishing stones and finish the edge.

Does this sound like a reasonable approach? It sounds like returning it is a no go, so I probably don't have much to lose here. Meanwhile I have some photo documentation now showing the blade as it is now.

Attachment 176485

By the way, thanks to all for all the comments and suggestions! I've read every one, and if it looks like this isn't returnable or that I can't fix it myself, then I'll certainly try sending it off to one of the pro honers.

All we can do is give suggestions my friend.

It is almost impossible to give 100% accurate advice based on pictures.
One would need to have it in their hands to KNOW what is going on.

If you in FACT know "that the flat spot was caused by me honing too far over onto the heel, and that simply is not so." ...

then I can offer no more suggestions. :shrug: :gl:

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Originally Posted by Sethbag

By the way, thanks to all for all the comments and suggestions! I've read every one, and if it looks like this isn't returnable or that I can't fix it myself, then I'll certainly try sending it off to one of the pro honers.

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Try honing with the heel of your razor angled slightly ahead of the toe on your hone.it appears that you will lose some steel while correcting the edge bevel .best of luck .salute .CAM .

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Originally Posted by Sethbag

By the way, thanks to all for all the comments and suggestions! I've read every one, and if it looks like this isn't returnable or that I can't fix it myself, then I'll certainly try sending it off to one of the pro honers.

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Think of it this way: if you ride your car onto a curb, do your tires wear evenly? Of course not. Where the tire is on the curb, you will see more wear. There will also be a gap where you see no wear at all. The bottom of the tread will also be worn. The enlarged images only outline what the others have told you. You honed onto the stabilizer which has changed the original honing angle just enough to create the flat spot that has the "original grind marks." I did the same to many razors before I realized what not to do. The advice being given is exactly correct.

Sethbag,

I see you're in the United States. So am I. Just drop over and I'll help you get that straightened out.

If you post your location, there is likely someone nearby who can help.

Seth,

We haven't seen the other side of the blade. That can tell a story or finish telling the story.

On the opposite side, does the bevel widen on that side directly opposite of the spot you've indicated. i.e. Is the opposite side bevel even from the heel and on past the spot or does it widen at that spot and is narrower before and after.

If it widens directly opposite of the side we see, then you're probably dealing with a warp in the blade. If the other side is a consistent width bevel even through that area, then you're probably dealing with a grind issue.....the side you show got a little too much grinding in that one spot.

Either are not uncommon and can be honed to a good edge. The trouble you're facing now is that you've honed without tape on the spine and now have uneven wear on the spine. Also you've honed into the stabilizer and that's going to create issues too.

The razor can be corrected, but I strongly urge you to send it to a pro honer. You can find one in this link. You can contact them via PM or through their info supplied in their ad. They are very capable and they can get you back on the right road.
Member Services - Straight Razor Place Classifieds

:gl:

Best Regards,

Howard :)

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Originally Posted by DPeet

Think of it this way: if you ride your car onto a curb, do your tires wear evenly? Of course not. Where the tire is on the curb, you will see more wear. There will also be a gap where you see no wear at all. The bottom of the tread will also be worn. The enlarged images only outline what the others have told you. You honed onto the stabilizer which has changed the original honing angle just enough to create the flat spot that has the "original grind marks." I did the same to many razors before I realized what not to do. The advice being given is exactly correct.

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I appreciate your comments. I'd only like to point out that if that flat spot was such because I'd lifted the heel end and thus not honed that spot, it would be a high spot, not a low spot. It's clearly a low spot, as is easy to see with a loupe, and as I think is clear from the photos I posted. See photos 2 and 3 in my original post. They show a clear low spot in the blade.

After reading, and re-reading, all of you guys posts, and considering the idea I proposed in my previous post, I decided to try to hone the side with the low spot until the edge wore down in the direction of the other side of the blade, and a slim bevel appeared. Once I had a continuous bevel on the problem side, I worked up through my 8k and 15k stones and stropped the razor on my new SRD long english bridle strop (just received it).

I tried shaving with the razor on my weekend beard growth. I only did half my face. It did in fact shave the face, but not nearly as easily as my Feather does, especially the areas I still struggle with, such as the chin. I'm not there yet. I'll re-watch all the honing and stropping videos, re-read the FAQs and articles and whatnot, and then revisit the edge again.

Here's the razor again with a thin but presumably usable bevel through the flat spot
Attachment 176525

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Originally Posted by SirStropalot

Either are not uncommon and can be honed to a good edge. The trouble you're facing now is that you've honed without tape on the spine and now have uneven wear on the spine. Also you've honed into the stabilizer and that's going to create issues too.

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Yeah, I wish I'd taped this one, and rest assured I'll tape it in the future, and any future razors I buy too.

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The razor can be corrected, but I strongly urge you to send it to a pro honer. You can find one in this link. You can contact them via PM or through their info supplied in their ad. They are very capable and they can get you back on the right road.
Member Services - Straight Razor Place Classifieds

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There's a good chance I'll end up doing that. One thing is I'm the kind of guy who expects myself to learn how to do these kinds of things and not rely on others. I already had some waterstones (though don't tell my wife, I went out and picked up the shapton 15k just for this razor) because of my woodworking experience, and I assumed that my sharpening experience with knives, gouges, and plane irons would mean I would learn razor honing quicker than average. I may be off-base in that assumption, but I will figure this out.

My view is that if tens of millions of average Joes throughout the world a hundred years ago managed to keep their razors shavable, it's something I'll get down eventually too.

I live in Arizona (about an hour southeast of Phoenix), in case anyone here lives close by and wouldn't mind showing a newb the ropes.

For now I'm trying to master sharpening the Dovo straight razor, and I'm willing to take my time. I've been shaving with the Feather for a couple months now. Each time I try the Dovo and it turns out not to be shave-ready yet, I just re-lather and kill the beard with the Feather straight razor. The Feather is unbelievable.

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Best Regards,

Howard :)

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Thanks!

Seth,

With taping, different personalities see it in differing ways. I'm a taper. I tape everything and always have, except a Kamisori or when the occasional urge to hone without it strikes.

I do urge those learning to hone a razor to tape in the beginning to avoid issues like you've run into. After you've more perfected the honing process you can decide if you want to continue with tape or quit using it.

You don't have to send your razor off to get it honed on a regular basis. Some do and just don't care about the honing part. Most think more like you and want to do the maintenance themselves. I'm just suggesting sending it out this once to get it all back in line and correct the heel and have a good recalibrated edge for learning razor honing.

You'll find, I think, that transferring sharpening skills over from knives and tools is limited. You drag metal over a hone to sharpen, but the pressure, angles and finesse are very different. Pressure and stroke angles, etc. vary greatly. Watching gssixgun's videos can help a lot.

We have members that offer to have one on one assistance, but I don't see any close to Phoenix. Here's the list..... Local Help - Straight Razor Place Library

You can also search members by area. Use the location function and remember that each member inputs their own location, so you may have to search by Arizona or Phoenix, or if Phoenix has a nickname, etc., etc. http://straightrazorpalace.com/memberlist.php?do=search

Love my Feather DX.

Again, :gl: !! You'll do fine, but this one time I'd send it off.

Regards,

Howard :)

Seth...I'll give you credit for wanting to stick with this project and figure out for yourself what the Art of the Hone is all about. Good on you.
When I first got into the whole honing thing, I was fortunate enough to have had a couple of my razors worked on by professionals so that I would know what the end product should be.

Then...I bought this ridiculous Chinese razor from eBay; I think it was about $3.00 or so. This is what I used to begin the learning process of how to sharpen a razor. Yep...this blade was a pathetic bit of work and never could really get it right. However I learned all the moves. Subsequently I moved on to a GD 66 for some more practice which gave me enough confidence to then step up to the rocks and begin honing my "real" razors. That was some time back. The learning process was helped along by a significant amount of YouTube tutorial videos and reading the forums.

Whatever path you choose to follow here...good luck.

Guys, I learned a new word a few weeks ago and I've been dying to use it. The word is "askhole", and it's a person who asks questions and advice from people and then doesn't follow any of it.

I don't want to be an askhole. I'm going to follow you guys' advice and send this razor off to be correctly honed by someone who knows how to do it right. Then, as Phoenix just said, when I get it back I'll know what right looks like in the future.

I stropped the razor again this morning and attempted to shave with it. It got most of the whiskers, but it's just not sharp enough for a good, easy shave. Too much pulling, too many whiskers not cut, etc. I relathered and shaved for real with the Feather SS, and there is simply no comparison. I'm simply not there yet.

So the Prima Silver Steel is going to a honemeister. In the meantime, I don't want to buy a Chinese junk razor off eBay to learn on, but what would you guys think about a Fromm? For $60 would I get a razor that's good enough I could actually enjoy using it once I master honing and stropping, yet cheap enough that I won't mind terribly if I hurt its feelings a little during the learning process?

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Originally Posted by Sethbag

what would you guys think about a Fromm? For $60 would I get a razor that's good enough I could actually enjoy using it once I master honing and stropping, yet cheap enough that I won't mind terribly if I hurt its feelings a little during the learning process?

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Don't have one, but here's a recent thread on the Fromm.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...mm-really.html

:)

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Originally Posted by SirStropalot

Don't have one, but here's a recent thread on the Fromm.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...mm-really.html

:)

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Hmm, well, nevermind I guess about the Fromm. Maybe I'll just spring for a Dovo "Best Quality" to use as my learning razor. Or there's the Thiers Issard "1937" razors for maybe $20 more. I'll have to do some more research.

Stabilizer is into the edge. Should be relieved a bit, Razor rehoned. It happens, not a big deal, IMO.
Does it shave??

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Originally Posted by Sethbag

I stropped the razor again this morning and attempted to shave with it. It got most of the whiskers, but it's just not sharp enough for a good, easy shave. Too much pulling, too many whiskers not cut, etc. I relathered and shaved for real with the Feather SS, and there is simply no comparison. I'm simply not there yet.

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Sounds like you just have not got the bevel set yet. If you tape the spine, hone with the heel leading to avoid the stabilizer on you bevel setting hone you should be able to get that flat spot out and bevel set. You could use a black marker on the edge to check your progress.

Then again like you say you are going to do sending it out for honing would be the easiest.

Bob

Grinding variance or Different thickness at the edge

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-set-pics.html


This thread explains it with Pics, it isn't talked about much on here because once the bevel is well and solidly set it is a none issue, but it can be found now and then on New or NOS razors...

It does require a slight "Push" while honing,

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Grinding variance or Different thickness at the edge

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-set-pics.html


This thread explains it with Pics, it isn't talked about much on here because once the bevel is well and solidly set it is a none issue, but it can be found now and then on New or NOS razors...

It does require a slight "Push" while honing,

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Wow, that was a fascinating read. It seems like that describes pretty much exactly what I was running into. I'm going to try one last thing before I send it off to be honed right. I'm going to pull out the magic marker and try one more time just to ensure that I've done my due diligence. Then it's off to the honemeister.

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Originally Posted by Sethbag

Wow, that was a fascinating read. It seems like that describes pretty much exactly what I was running into. I'm going to try one last thing before I send it off to be honed right. I'm going to pull out the magic marker and try one more time just to ensure that I've done my due diligence. Then it's off to the honemeister.

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Good on you. You are doing the right thing IMO to try and learn all you can off of that razor. As stated previously, those type of issues are pretty common even in current production razors.

Also check for a frown by holding the razor edge down on a known flat surface and see if you can see light under the blade. I have seen a new Dove Best Quality with that issue

I hope you don't mint me saying but I agree it looks like someone has been at that blade with a bench grinder, not literally but it's pretty bad sorry :-(

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Originally Posted by Chevhead

Honing is not difficult until you have a problem...

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Nailed it. It's easy to fall prey to the insidious and deceptive nature of our sweet little straight razors. There's only like what, two moving parts? (:p)

There are volumes of reasons why traditionally, it was only the very accomplished and talented cutlers who attempted razor manufacture. When everything works, it's dead nuts simple. When one small factor goes awry, showstopping complications are the result.

I remember a buddy of mine years ago who had gone native over golf. He was waxing poetically and said (I'm paraphrasing here...) "you've got a thousand things to consider in performing the perfect stroke but only one shot to execute it when you drive the ball. Arnold Palmer got it right every time, and as a result, anybody who ever watched ABC's Wide World of Sports thinks golfing is an unskilled pastime."

Guilty.:beer2:

I discovered two distinct phases in my first attempts to develop the skill to hone my own razors:

1) "Hey, this is a snap! As a result of my keen new found skill at honing, my minty new old stock Dubl Duck #1 is shave ready! BRING ON THE RESTOS!"

Followed soon after by things like:

2) Why does my bevel look like an EKG blip? What the hell have I done here? THIS worked LAST time! Nothing is working the way it should...where's my hairshirt...

The lesson I learned was, at the first sign of trouble, when my solid fundamental "tools" (knowledge and skill) are failing, scream out for help before I do damage.