Dating my butcher

Attachment 193403Attachment 193404

Met her today, she's always smiling at me, she's so beautiful, I think I'm in love.

7/8s, near wedge, rescaled buffalo horn scale using original as template, original lead wedge, brass behive collars and pins.

According to the standard guide to razors by Roy Ritchie and Ron Stewart jimps appeared around 1820-1830 and celebrated appeared around 1830-1840. GR 1820-1830, WR 1830-1837 and VR 1837-1901.

She has zero jimps, is celebrated and no GR WR VR. The seller estimated 1830-1840. I'm not so sure, she looks very young.

How old is she?

Be interesting to see what the knowledgeable members think. I suspect that she is not that old from the grind and the tang/tail shape but no expert here. Can't see the tang stamp but was wondering if it says Sheffield or Sheffield England?

Bob

I think the double shoulder started to show up after 1870.

Tang says manufactured by wade and butcher sheffield. Sorry, I can't get a decent picture at the moment.

What is the significance of the "england" stamp? I've heard it mentioned but I'm drawing a blank now xD

Country stamps were required on imported items after I believe 1890 IIRC. There fore if it said sheffield england then most likely it would be made after that date.

The McKinley Tariff Act was passed in Oct. 1890. The country of origin was required on all exports for tax purposes. If your razor had said England then it would be post 1890.

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Originally Posted by RedGladiator

According to the standard guide to razors by Roy Ritchie and Ron Stewart jimps appeared around 1820-1830 and celebrated appeared around 1830-1840. GR 1820-1830, WR 1830-1837 and VR 1837-1901.

She has zero jimps, is celebrated and no GR WR VR. The seller estimated 1830-1840. I'm not so sure, she looks very young.

How old is she?

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I just found a chart in the book. According to the chart after 1830 razors are made with jimps, which I find questionable. And "celebrated" was used in period 1840-1870.

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Originally Posted by karlej

The McKinley Tariff Act was passed in Oct. 1890. The country of origin was required on all exports for tax purposes. If your razor had said England then it would be post 1890.

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It does not say england anywhere, just sheffield.

Not sure if it has been exported, I live in UK and the Seller is from UK too if that makes any difference.

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Originally Posted by RedGladiator

It does not say england anywhere, just sheffield.

Not sure if it has been exported, I live in UK and the Seller is from UK too if that makes any difference.

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Yes, I have wondered about that same point myself. My guess would be that when manufacturing those razors after the McKinley Tariff Act they all received the England stamp as sorting out razors into domestic market and foreign would be a pita. Then again you never know.

Bob

It' pre-1890, and it's not a near wedge, it's a hollow ground razor, the range is probably towards the later part of the 19th century. I have W&B razors with all the marks you mention above, including several of the Celebrated Hollow Ground, and depending on the style of etching on the tang, they do tend to range about 30-40 years towards the end of the 19th century. Beautiful blade.

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Originally Posted by Phrank

It' pre-1890, and it's not a near wedge, it's a hollow ground razor, the range is probably towards the later part of the 19th century. I have W&B razors with all the marks you mention above, including several of the Celebrated Hollow Ground, and depending on the style of etching on the tang, they do tend to range about 30-40 years towards the end of the 19th century. Beautiful blade.

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Attachment 193421
Thanks, the seller called it near wedge, thought that didn't make sense. This is the best pic I could get, my camerawould not focus. Would you say 1/4 hollow then?

This is a pic from he seller of the tang. The "manufactured by" looks better in person.
Attachment 193422

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Originally Posted by RedGladiator

Thanks, the seller called it near wedge, thought that didn't make sense. This is the best pic I could get, my camerawould not focus. Would you say 1/4 hollow then?

This is a pic from he seller of the tang. The "manufactured by" looks better in person.

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I have two of the exact same blade, one more along the line's of yours, more to the 1/2-1/4 hollow and one that is quite a hollow ground, some of these razors were re-ground so it's easily possible to get the same razor with various degrees of grind. But IMO, it is definitely not a near wedge, you'll be able to tell what level of grind it is when you shave with it...the more feedback, the hollower the grind from my experience.

I'm thinking 1870-1890. Appears the marks are etched rather than stamped. Not sure when W&B started etching but it was later in their production.

Hard to tell from the pics but it looks like a rescale to me. Razor has been up and done a hone a few miles. Should still be a great shaver when honed up as those things have a lot of steel

Here's' pretty much the same razor. Pretty much a quarter hollow as I recall.
Attachment 193424

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Originally Posted by Phrank

you'll be able to tell what level of grind it is when you shave with it

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Not with my current level of experience :)

What is the term for the spine? "Smiling spine"? "hollow spine"?

Yes Wullie - here's mine - this one I'd say is more on the hollow side at 8/8, same razor, etched not stamped, which you are correct sir, dates it later in the period.

Attachment 193425

Here's a round point, 7/8 version I have of this blade, again, markings are etched, not stamped and jimps on the tang:

Attachment 193426

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Originally Posted by Wullie

I'm thinking 1870-1890. Appears the marks are etched rather than stamped. Not sure when W&B started etching but it was later in their production.

Hard to tell from the pics but it looks like a rescale to me. Razor has been up and done a hone a few miles. Should still be a great shaver when honed up as those things have a lot of steel

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What's the difference betweet etch and stamp?

To my eye, it look like near zero hone wear to the spine, but the bevel looks like it has uneven hone wear.

Yes rescaled with buffalo horn, using the original as a template.

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Originally Posted by Wullie

I'm thinking 1870-1890. Appears the marks are etched rather than stamped. Not sure when W&B started etching but it was later in their production.

Hard to tell from the pics but it looks like a rescale to me. Razor has been up and done a hone a few miles. Should still be a great shaver when honed up as those things have a lot of steel

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I'm incllned to agree with you Wullie.

An acid etched mark would expain how the circle in the mark lies on two levels on the tang - you could not do that to the degree indicated here with a stamped mark - (a) it would have to be applied with such force that it would seriously displace the metal, and (b) the undercut lower part of the tang appears to have been finished and buffed before the mark was applies. If it was stamped and the undercut then walked through its paces, the lower part of the circle would be lost altogether. The lightness of the top pat of the mark is the result of restoration.

I agree it is a rescale, but the scales are not original, in my opinion, nor are the stacked washers with a conical modern Dovo-type pin washer. Looks like the blade is somewhere between a half hollow ground and a quarter hollow ground, maybe a bit thicker, but definitely not a 'near wedge'.

Regards,
Neil

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Originally Posted by RedGladiator

What's the difference betweet etch and stamp?

To my eye, it look like near zero hone wear to the spine, but the bevel looks like it has uneven hone wear.

Yes rescaled with buffalo horn, using the original as a template.

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Your razor has lost some steel towards the toe, probably improper honing, and the spine has some expected hone wear, which is from being placed on the stones without tape, causing the edge of the razor to lose metal as well, it is fairly easy to see.

The above razors are acid etched rather than stamped, here is a stamped tang, notice the difference in the depth of the marks:

Attachment 193427

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Originally Posted by RedGladiator

What's the difference betweet etch and stamp?

To my eye, it look like near zero hone wear to the spine, but the bevel looks like it has uneven hone wear.

Yes rescaled with buffalo horn, using the original as a template.

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A "stamp" was a tool that physically impressed itself into the metal. An etch used acid to remove metal.
Here is an example of a stamp.
http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/u...dballWB001.jpg

Compare that against the markings on your razor.

As for hone wear, yours and the one I pictured have significant hone wear. The one Phrank pictured has very little hone wear. Yours has some pretty extreme wear at the toe. Once again, see the razor Phrank posted to compare the shape of your blade vs his.

Your razor can be made to shave. It is not a razor for a neophyte to attempt honing. It took 4 layers of tape to get the old W&B I posted to shave right. The wear on mine was extreme but it was pretty even.

The "smiling" you asked about refers to the curve of the of the blade that resembles a smile when viewed with the spine up. Some guys like 'em smiling, some don't. It's a matter of personal taste. I like 'em, but have no trouble using either a straight or a smiling blade.

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Originally Posted by RedGladiator

Not with my current level of experience :)

What is the term for the spine? "Smiling spine"? "hollow spine"?

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The 'spine' is simply that - the spine! It is the thicker bit of metal at the top of the razor. I have never heard of a smiling or hollow hollow spine - both those terms are usually applied to the blade, 'smiling' denotes a blade that resembles a cheshire cats smile (the cutting edge of the blade is curved, the spine an be curved or usually nigh on straight, while hollowing means applying a greater or lesser hollow by means of larger radius or smaller radius cutting wheels to both sides of the blade - best seen by viewing the tip head on.

As for the hone wear on your razor, the thickness of the cutting edge's bevel at the tip is quite thick and you should see this reciprocated on the sides (or 'flats') of the spine at the tip, but yours is quite light compared to the bevel. This makes me think the restorer taped the spine, frequently, while honing to avoid excess spine wear. Bevels on oldies like this tend to 'wander' a bit - does not mean poor honing. The thicker bevel at the tip could be the result of extra honing to remove a chip or to get back to stronger, non-corroded steel. You see extra wear at the tip like this on many razors, and in a lot of cases it is a fault in the grinding rather than poor honing.

Oldies (and most new un's) were hand hollowed - the tendency is for the hollowing to go a bit awry at the tip and heel. You don't notice it as often at the heel, as you can bolt a stop piece there to avoid grinding too far into the blade, so you just past the blade over the wheel with gay abandon until it hits the stop. At the tip, you can understand a slight letting off of pressure against the wheel in order to safely get past the wheel and not plunging the blade down the side of it at the end of the stroke.

Regards,
Neil

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

The 'spine' is simply that - the spine! It is the thicker bit of metal at the top of the razor. I have never heard of a smiling or hollow hollow spine - both those terms are usually applied to the blade

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I mean that the spine is not completely flat
Attachment 193430

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Originally Posted by RedGladiator

I mean that the spine is not completely flat
Attachment 193430

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That is the way razors were made in that era, for the most part.

The cutting edge should parallel the spine.

I think what RG is referring to is the hone wear, causing the spine to not be completely flat...that's what the pic looks like to my eye.

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Originally Posted by Phrank

I think what RG is referring to is the hone wear, causing the spine to not be completely flat...that's what the pic looks like to my eye.

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As in flat, do you mean like this?
http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/u.../razors084.jpg

Or are you referring to hone wear like this extreme example of a well worn near wedge?
http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/u...I/Older003.jpg

I mean the gap between the pencil and the spine, if it was flat there would be no gap.

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Originally Posted by RedGladiator

I mean the gap between the pencil and the spine, if it was flat there would be no gap.

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Like I said earlier, that is the way most razors of that era were made.

The straight backed design as shown in the top picture of the two I posted became more popular with the advent of machinery to do the work of grinding that was formerly done by hand.