Odd spine. Removed or made this way?

Hello again, and thank you Lynn and gents, for making this place possible.
1st of I want to state, I as some of you are new, and I don't want to offend any of the seasoned veterans here. So if I Wade & "Butcher" :D the terminology, please forgive me.

As of late I have been running across razors that appear to have sections of the spine removed. At first I thought these were modifications done to frameback razors (see below), but this didn't make any sense, because of the design. Then I noticed this being preformed on razors that I knew to have a spine.

So, what is the purpose of removing sections of the spine? Weight, balance, decay (pitting), design?

Erik Anton Berg (No.62) Swedish razor
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...pshqmgfrkg.jpg

The one on the right is a Henckels Twinworks (No.060) Solingen Germeny
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...psgdd5masq.jpg

I'll be nice and just say it looks like somebody is wade and Butchering some razors thinking it's cool. I don't :<0)

The fact that these two examples come from opposite sides of the globe (I know Sweden and Germany are closer than either to the U.S.) is puzzling. Either the same person had possession of these two razors and preformed the same work. Or it's bigger than that.

Or it's a small group of cool dudes on Facebook :<0) It looks to me like somebody (s) taking off hone wear the wrong way. Just saying for the sake of conversation. If you like the look get one. I see the top of the spine marking up my nice strops.

The Anton Berg I believe is missing the spine. Look on strazors.com. I have seen some that slip on and others that are permanent.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...ird-spine.html


IF I had one like that I would be crazy enough to try and put some brass on it.

They are the real deal - that is, they were made that way (the ones with the cut down spine).

Why? They were bought with a slip on sleeve (a 'guard') that came as a protector, to stop the nervous or infirm cutting themselves. Some people used then to trim hair, too. They are generically referred to as guard razors, and have a fairl long history - back to the US Civil War and earlier.

There were many makes, including this Henckels:

Attachment 195291

Attachment 195292

It is not the same thing as the slip-on spine that we find in other (mainly Swedish) makes - these ones have a very thin blade, some are blued, all are wedge-shaped seen full-on, even though they are so thin. The spine - a tube of metal with a lengthwise slit) was there to provide the the honing angle.

The guard razor does not need the guard attachment for this - it is honed in the conventional manner.

I think they look great.

Regards,
Neil

So, the guard isn't required to properly hone or strop?
The guard was intended for the user while shaving? To protect the user. I see in your photo how it was intended to be used.

Here is a head-on of the blade. So it's safe to assume the guard isn't required to use, hone or strop. But would add value?
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1ekolb6n.jpg

TY Neil for clearing up the mystery of this grind. I have the Henckels you posted but do not have the guard. I have always wondered if this was just a unique grind or what. Now I know, and now I need to find the guard because I am OCD like that.

Exactly. Now we need a timemachine to return to 1857. ��

I have a Torrey that I thought was suppose to have a guard and now I know it did and what the guard looked like.

Attachment 195321

The straight razor version of a safety razor, very cool. I imagine the guards would be hard to come by, probably lost or discarded along the way. Has anyone here shaved with one?

I have one and it shaves beautifully without the guard.

As you probably know by now, it could be missing the guard. It also might be missing the part of the spine that some razors had on them. Beautiful razor though. If it is a guard & if you search, you might eventually find one. I had a Wade & Butcher Lord Byron box that was missing the razor as many of our members know because I finally got one & listed it here:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/show-...ml#post1456982

You might go to the classifieds & post a "wanted" ad. The chances are slim but you never know. As far as I know there is only one other member on here that has the complete set like I now do. I had put an ad in the classified & a day after I was in a motorcycle accident on my Harley, someone sent me a message but I never saw it until a month or so later. I sent the person a message because they said that they had that razor. I didn't get a reply so there was an option to send them an email, so I did. I think it was the next day or two I was on eBay & one popped up & it had a few minutes left so I waited & won it. I also had a reply from the person here that had it & they said that they were sorry that they had just sold it on eBay. Well, I gave her my name & sure enough, it was me. I had won the same straight razor that they tried to tell me they had but I had been in the accident & didn't see the message. I got the straight razor in the mail & it wasn't in bad shape so I cleaned it up, polished it & finished the missing piece to my puzzle. I still have one more of those boxes so I am still looking for another razor like it but it isn't as important because this box isn't in as good of shape as you can see in the link I provided above but the box I have the razor in now is very nice. The box I originally started out with was the ratty looking one but a nicer box showed up on eBay one day for $25 bin so I bought it. It was then about a month later when I was in the accident & that person tried to reach me. It was by coincidence that I won the razor they tried to reply to me about. I just happened to be in the right place at the right time. It doesn't hurt to place a wanted ad on here if it is in fact a missing guard. You never know, someone might reply with one for you. I had that listing up several months. I will even give this other box to someone if they need it. I don't need two.
I have been a member here for a little over a year & I have made many friends & met a lot of knowledgeable people here. You are in the right place & I wish you the best of luck in finding the guard for that razor if it is a guard that is missing.
It's great to have you here Danny!

The above is very true.

Also, many third party vendors made no-name guards, so there are others about that although not made specifically for your razor, will fit it.

This type will rely on 'pinching' the part of the razor just under the shoulder of the spine. The tabs can be bent - it is some form of brass covered with nickel plating, usually, so a number of blades can be used with it.

There are some that cannot be used with your razor, like the Stuart Plantagenet which is attached via a screw:

Attachment 195393

Attachment 195394

Attachment 195395

So if you buy one online, get a good image of both sides and the top - just to be sure, although no doubt there are collectors of guards about... somewhere!

Regards,
Neil

I have not ever shaved with one with the guard on, but it seems it would be a bother as switching to the other side during the shave. UNLESS it was learned to shave the entire face with one side?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

I have not ever shaved with one with the guard on, but it seems it would be a bother as switching to the other side during the shave. UNLESS it was learned to shave the entire face with one side?

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Err - slip the guard off and put it on the other way around??? :)

I think one of the old ads I saw mentioned it was of great use to Civil War
vets who had lost an arm....

Regards,
Neil

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JSmith1983

I have a Torrey that I thought was suppose to have a guard and now I know it did and what the guard looked like.

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Indeed the same kind of guard on this "Little Torrey"

Attachment 195461
Attachment 195462

http://straightrazorpalace.com/show-...-60-1-2-a.html

Another thread, although these are wedge or half hollow, not full hollow like this one

I believe this razor, since it is hollowed, is missing the typical part on the spine (cap, sleeve) like most of the Swedish framebacks had, probably because there was a removal of a large chip and the geometry wasn't correct anymore, therefore a regrind was necessary. Because the razor was now smaller, the missing part (cap, sleeve) wasn't needed anymore and it could be used liked this.

The typical Swedish framebacks were very narrow "wedges" with a cap, sleeve around the spine to ensure the right honing angle was created

I have seen loads like this - I have a seven day set as you can see in the link you provided, and loads of similar ones have passed through my hands. Like I said before, they were made like that, in other places than Sweden like Germany and America.

They are not the result of regrinding a faulty razor.

Furthermore, this 'guard' design is not a frameback - framebacks have a spine that is permanently attached to the scales - the pivot pin goes through it. The blades are held by this spine (or frame - hence 'frame-back') by some sort of mechanism like a small screw up front of a spring mechanism. It is very inconvenient to hone the blade at the right angle without the frame, hence the blade was kept in the frame for honing.

The frame-back was made this way intentionally, it is not an adaptation to a faulty razor.

The other type, very popular in Sweden at one time were the opposite to this concept. The razor blade and tang were ground in near or true wedge grinds, and a disposable tube with a slit in the length was slid over what should have been the spine. This however was the 'luxury' model compared to its more basic sibling where the blade and tang appear to have been stamped out of a thin bit of metal, the spine tube being slid on after. These had to honed with the sleeve, which, often being of a softer metal, wore at a faster rate than the blade. However, they were meant to be replaceable, so no worries.

These 'tube-frames' or whatever you want to call them were intentionally made this way - they are not the result of adapting a flawed razor.

Regards,
Neil

Here is a pic of one (Baxxers):-

Attachment 195678

So, not really a frame-back at all.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...ml#post1456970


There is a pic of just one style of a "True Frameback"

Thank you, but my point was that this is a hollowed one, and not the typical almost wedge Swedish razor,
I have 20-30 of those, and none of them are full hollowed like this razor, I also believe that the guard razors are mostly near wedge or half hollow ground, but not full hollow...

Is this be correct what I'm thinking?

Thanks!

Terribly sorry for the name confusion!
What I mean with Swedish framebacks is one like this:
Attachment 195705
They are wedge shaped but VERY narrow, hence the need of a "tube"
Therefore my idea that this was a "real Swedish frameback" that had a large chip which was maybe removed and in need of a full holow ground, which led to the unnecessarity of the "tube"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martin103

Indeed the same kind of guard on this "Little Torrey"

Attachment 195461
Attachment 195462

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My Torrey Little Guard. The blade could use a little cleaning up!

Attachment 195726

Okay, here are a few other pics, that have stirred a controversy, since the original posting. They may help depict if the blade was reground from a near wedge to a hollow grind. Or in fact the blade was originally designed this way, and is only missing the guard.
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...pstrdft3wi.jpg
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5ldeagm5.jpg
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/...psi3lk53e3.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

I have seen loads like this - I have a seven day set as you can see in the link you provided, and loads of similar ones have passed through my hands. Like I said before, they were made like that, in other places than Sweden like Germany and America.

They are not the result of regrinding a faulty razor.

Furthermore, this 'guard' design is not a frameback - framebacks have a spine that is permanently attached to the scales - the pivot pin goes through it. The blades are held by this spine (or frame - hence 'frame-back') by some sort of mechanism like a small screw up front of a spring mechanism. It is very inconvenient to hone the blade at the right angle without the frame, hence the blade was kept in the frame for honing.

The frame-back was made this way intentionally, it is not an adaptation to a faulty razor.

The other type, very popular in Sweden at one time were the opposite to this concept. The razor blade and tang were ground in near or true wedge grinds, and a disposable tube with a slit in the length was slid over what should have been the spine. This however was the 'luxury' model compared to its more basic sibling where the blade and tang appear to have been stamped out of a thin bit of metal, the spine tube being slid on after. These had to honed with the sleeve, which, often being of a softer metal, wore at a faster rate than the blade. However, they were meant to be replaceable, so no worries.

These 'tube-frames' or whatever you want to call them were intentionally made this way - they are not the result of adapting a flawed razor.

Regards,
Neil

Here is a pic of one (Baxxers):-

Attachment 195678

So, not really a frame-back at all.

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Hi, I have realized that I made a fool out of myself! I was totally wrong!
Very sorry about this!
I was so fixated on the form, that is identical then other Swedish razors (with the tube), that I totally ignored the correct angle and thickness of the spine.
I measured the thickness of the spine of my razors, this without the tube of course, and got measurements between 1 and 2 mm for a 15 - 19 mm (5/8' - 6/8' razor)
Comparing the spine with a "normal sized" 1/16' or 1,6 mm rod, this spine is a lot wider then 1-2 mm!
It would be a huge razor (maybe even 10/8' ) when my idea was correct!

Terrible sorry for this!
It still intrigues me that I haven't seen such a full hollow ground razor with this kind of spine

Most respect and most kindest regards