Crown wolf razor manufacturer question

Attachment 196613Attachment 196614 I recently acquired this crown and wolf razor, but after looking up info on the manufacturer I am a bit confused. I thought it to be a John Shepherd 1770-1795, but now find Barber John & Son (old English, & successors to George Shepherd's mark, ' Wolf & crown' ) 12 Norfolk st. I also found a thread on here where an Allen and Son had the same mark, and it appeared:thinking: that The original firm of Allen & Son was founded in 1818 and based at Granville Works in Granville Street, Sheffield. They made small knives and used a sort of masonic trademark of compasses and steel square. Robert Allen died in 1898 after which (1902) the firm and its rights was acquired by Joseph Elliot. Joseph Elliot & Sons trademark was two reversed 'C's, one either side of a maltese cross, but they also bought the trademarks used by other companies such as Barber, Wigfall, Lockwood Bros, etc. One of those companies used two maltese crosses.:thinking:

So if I am reading that correct Joseph Elliot & Sons bought the trademarks of Barber so an Allen and son razor had the crown and wolf mark on it, and Barber was the successor to George Shepherd?

I am guessing based on style this razor would be around 1775-1800.

Does anyone have better info on the Crown and Wolf? Is this a John Shepherd? Is there anymore info on John Shepherd, or George Shepherd? I can't find years for George Shepherd.
Just very interested the history of this. I shaved with it for the first time last night and it gave a really nice shave.
Also this is my first post so let me know if I did this correctly or not.
Thanks

Only thing I came up with under cutlers marks:
Herder & Engels used the crowd trademark
And
W. Fakenheim, Frankfurt used the trade mark wolf

The history of the WOLF (crown) mark is fairly complicated and murky. John Shepherd, or possibly John Shepherd and his son of the same name, seem to have produced razors from 1774 until the late 1820's. George Shepherd may have been another son, or a distant relative capitalizing on the name. John Barber bought the mark in 1839, but he didn't survive much longer. Much later, Joseph Elliot purchased it (along with Barber's marks), but that was in the late 1800's.

Your razor is pretty straightforwardly from John Shepherd, and most likely from 1780-1800.

The blade originally looked like this:

http://theshiveringbeggar.com/wp-con.../03/image1.jpg

Many razors from the period were worn down the way yours is. Like yours, many of them continue to be superb razors.

It's a wonderful treat to shave with such an old and distinguished razor. Enjoy!

I had a feeling that is what I was seeing in the info. Thank you. You also answered my next question about the blade shape/grind. I like it though tells my thumb where the blade starts. Now I need to hunt down one with a full blade.

One last thing Voidmonster or anyone who knows. From looking at your blade the bevel/blade looks much shorter with a longer tang between the blade and the scales than on mine. Am I seeing that correctly? Were they all like that which would make mine more of a regrind? I really love the look and feel of these old blades and will probably collect a few more over time. I started my collection with 5 old, some kind of rare hollow ground blades from my Grandpa. Not sure where he got them since some are from the early to mid 1800's. Wish I had them when he was alive to ask. I moved on too the sheffield wedges and found I like the look and feel better than hollow ground and now these early blades feel even better.
This site has been a great help in figuring out the history of what I have and stone/honing to up keep my razors.
When I get a chance I need to take some picks and figure out more about a Numax razor and a Gebruder Weyersberg.
Thanks again. Enjoy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rideon66

One last thing Voidmonster or anyone who knows. From looking at your blade the bevel/blade looks much shorter with a longer tang between the blade and the scales than on mine. Am I seeing that correctly? Were they all like that which would make mine more of a regrind? I really love the look and feel of these old blades and will probably collect a few more over time. I started my collection with 5 old, some kind of rare hollow ground blades from my Grandpa. Not sure where he got them since some are from the early to mid 1800's. Wish I had them when he was alive to ask. I moved on too the sheffield wedges and found I like the look and feel better than hollow ground and now these early blades feel even better.
This site has been a great help in figuring out the history of what I have and stone/honing to up keep my razors.
When I get a chance I need to take some picks and figure out more about a Numax razor and a Gebruder Weyersberg.
Thanks again. Enjoy.

---

It's a bit of a trick of the light. The bevel continues all the way back to where there's that little dogleg in the spine just before it gets to the WOLF mark.

My strong suspicion is that a lot of the old razors ended up worn down the way they were not because they were reground but because they were stropped daily with a pasted (abrasive) strop.

Old Sheffield manufacturers produced a bewildering array of styles and shapes, even from 1780-1810. This particular shape of blade doesn't seem to have been manufactured much beyond 1800, but many of the other types of blade made from 1800-1820 continued to be produced nearly into the 20th century.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Voidmonster

The history of the WOLF (crown) mark is fairly complicated and murky. John Shepherd, or possibly John Shepherd and his son of the same name, seem to have produced razors from 1774 until the late 1820's. George Shepherd may have been another son, or a distant relative capitalizing on the name. John Barber bought the mark in 1839, but he didn't survive much longer. Much later, Joseph Elliot purchased it (along with Barber's marks), but that was in the late 1800's.

Your razor is pretty straightforwardly from John Shepherd, and most likely from 1780-1800.



The blade originally looked like this:

http://theshiveringbeggar.com/wp-con.../03/image1.jpg

Many razors from the period were worn down the way yours is. Like yours, many of them continue to be superb razors.

It's a wonderful treat to shave with such an old and distinguished razor. Enjoy!

---

Ok now I have an interesting question. I was under the impression my razor originally looked like that, but found this one that looks identical to mine.
Attachment 225424Attachment 225425Attachment 225426Attachment 225427

So now I wonder if mine is original and was just a different grind. I would assume the straight one is earlier and mine would be a little later as they evolved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rideon66

Ok now I have an interesting question. I was under the impression my razor originally looked like that, but found this one that looks identical to mine.
Attachment 225424Attachment 225425Attachment 225426Attachment 225427

So now I wonder if mine is original and was just a different grind. I would assume the straight one is earlier and mine would be a little later as they evolved.

---

This is something I've been wondering about, but it's difficult to know for certain.

http://theshiveringbeggar.com/wp-con...s-features.jpg
Norris is 1790-1800, strange symbol made by Henry (illegible) 1750-1774, R(heart) Spain was made by Ann Rowland between 1774 and 1787.

I've seen many 1700's razors with that tooth at the end of the cutting edge. It's there in all the ones shown, even the later Norris.

It's dead-certain that abrasive, pasted strops were very popular during this period. Packwood made his name by selling little packages of strop paste along with his strops (before he had his own brand of razors, made by various Sheffield manufacturers). Also popular at the time were padded strops, where the strop surface was a cushy, rounded surface. Between that and the abrasive paste, regular stropping would have had to wear down razors, and the tapered end of the cutting edge on those old styles would definitely end up showing a tooth like that from strop wear.

However! There's no sign of abrasion on the spine of the razor with the odd mark, and the hone lines are pretty regular. It's sort of suggestive that the shape may have been intentional and possibly even original.

The short version is that I don't know, but sort of suspect that may have been a feature, not a bug. At this remove from the period, lacking any sort of documentary evidence other than the razors themselves, my best guess is still on wear, not design.

I am open to other possibilities though.

Attachment 225447Attachment 225448

Ok in support of the tooth. Here is a razor close to that period that I actually just bought and it is only shipping tomorrow from Sweden so won't have it for awhile. Anyway it has the tooth and by the design of the tang/shank it looks like it was meant to be there and not from using pastes. I am guessing the scales are not original, but I could be wrong.

I have wondered about this a bit, I have seen that heel tooth on many many razors of mine, but only on those that also show signs of very heavy wear or reworking. I suspect 99% it was caused over time and not be design, but as Zak says, it's hard to say without hard evidence. The vast majority of depictions of period razors, as well as those in closest to original condition, there is a nice smooth line along the edge. The difference is with these razors, there is almost no transition at the tang, so any grinding work done, if not done to the whole tang as well (which I have also seen on some examples), will result in the odd shapes observed.

@rideon, I'm positive those scales are more modern based on the shape of them. They look like gutta percha but I can't say without seeing them closely.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...big-knives.jpg

The shape is verily similar to a well honed/worn out knife like these pictured here. I doubt that they were made that way.

Attachment 225489Yes but some knives filet for example are made exactly that way on purpose. Also does not explain how two razors made by the same maker at around the same time that spent lots of time on two separate continents(that are rare also) ended up with what looks like the exact same dimensions and hone wear? Why also does the one I just bought have the tooth below the tang which is clearly defined tang. So this one if it was worn down that way wwould've had the blade below the tang? Also I have seen others from this maker that looked almost identical in shape. Which is an odd shape.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rideon66

Attachment 225489Yes but some knives filet for example are made exactly that way on purpose. Also does not explain how two razors made by the same maker at around the same time that spent lots of time on two separate continents(that are rare also) ended up with what looks like the exact same dimensions and hone wear? Why also does the one I just bought have the tooth below the tang which is clearly defined tang. So this one if it was worn down that way wwould've had the blade below the tang? Also I have seen others from this maker that looked almost identical in shape. Which is an odd shape.

---

When you start talking "rare" etc. you start loosing my interest. What does the continent involved have to do with the issue?

Check out this thread of a very common cheap razor, especially post #6.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...ld-dollar.html

Sorry I just mean there aren't many around. I got this one from Finland. The other one is from the US. Both started out in England. My point was the chance it was treated the same and honed and stropped the same for 200 years giving you the same result was like winning 1.6b in the powerball. I guess it is possible but seems unlikely to me. Now if they were made like that and were not over used they would look similar. Plus it looks to me like an early evolution stage.

My theory is that most of the reason for the shape (with pasted strops being a contributing factor) was just years and years of regrinding and use. Later razors, when reground, just decrease in size - the tang stays the same, but the blade shrinks a little. Here, the tang is level with the edge so any decrease in the blade width becomes apparent.

Here are examples of the extreme wear discussed:

Attachment 225522

Attachment 225523

A few with less wear, but the same shaping:

Attachment 225524

Attachment 225525

Here are two that are essentially untouched:

Attachment 225526

Attachment 225527

From Perret's book:

Attachment 225529

One thing to note is that the tang lines are nice and sharp on these, whereas most I have seen that have the spike at the heel have blurred or softened lines there due to regrinding. Due to the geometry, I think that a lot of these may have been honed a bit toe-favored, supported by this John Shepherd - note the bevel sizes:

Attachment 225528

This causes a creeping over time of the part that gets honed toward the toe due to what sits flat on the hone. I'd wager that then when they went to regrind, they often didn't grind the tang and just hit the blade. There are some pieces where it's possible (due to the change in angle of the bottom of the tang) that this was sometimes corrected for:

Attachment 225530

Attachment 225531

I do see your point and am in no way saying I am correct here. I just found it very odd that mine and the one I posted are almost exactly the same. Where when I see other makers worn down it is not that close in shape and the wedge and spine are not that intact. I would think to get that close you would have to have the same person honing it, because everyone would have a different technique and would wear down the razor differently due to there technique.

Working our way back to the original form from the present state of razors 200+ years old is a sketchy way of figuring out what they looked like originally. There are many different ways these razors can be modified, and likely were modified over that long a span, especially if they were in use at all.

For the moment, I'll leave aside the popularity of the padded, pasted strop in the late 1700's and early 1800's because I can't turn up the specific quotes I have in mind.

Our very best source of information about the shape of these razors when they were manufactured is illustrations of razors in use from the era.

I've found a few:

Attachment 225563
Attachment 225564
The Patriotic Barber of New York 1775, By Phillip Dawe

Attachment 225565
Attachment 225566
“Perruquier-barbier, barbe et frisure.” Plate from Digest, of science, liberal arts, and the mechanic arts, with their explanation. Seventh or eighth volume. Paris, 1771

Attachment 225568
Barber Tools of the Renaissance Unknown source or date, probably late 1600's.

Attachment 225569
Attachment 225570
Barber Surgeons Operating on a Boil on a Man's Forehead by Miguel March, sometime between 1645 and 1670.

That's enough to convince me that more likely than not these razors were worn down by honing, grinding, and pasted strops.

Later, when I have time and a workshop, I'll take a junk razor and strop the living daylights out of it on a padded strop with jeweler's rouge and see if I can't replicate the wear pattern.

For now though, I'm pretty certain these razors were not made to have that tooth.

Attachment 227372
Ok I think this is from stropping on a pasted strop. Smallest bevel I have ever seen and while looking at it could see green paste from long ago till I cleaned it.

hi i was looking for original wedge type for these razors as i need to make one. do you guys have any picture to see?

This thread makes me want to make some razors of this type. What angle are they ground at? I have a a few pieces of very old spring steel I could make them from if I can find it! LOL

Slawman

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Slawman

This thread makes me want to make some razors of this type. What angle are they ground at? I have a a few pieces of very old spring steel I could make them from if I can find it! LOL

Slawman

---

Welcome to the club :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Slawman

This thread makes me want to make some razors of this type. What angle are they ground at? I have a a few pieces of very old spring steel I could make them from if I can find it! LOL

Slawman

---

oooh that's be great and a fun thing to try - make blades of old 1700s shape (and possibly material, if you're feeling brave)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rideon66

...The original firm of Allen & Son was founded in 1818 and based at Granville Works in Granville Street, Sheffield. They made small knives and used a sort of masonic trademark of compasses and steel square...

---

First of all, apologies for hijacking the thread!

I appreciate that this a razor and not a small knife, but is this the 'compass and square' mark referred to, and does that mean that this razor was made by Allen & Son? I was planning to put this question in a separate thread at some point, but seeing as it was mentioned here, I thought I'd ask the question.

Attachment 309888

Many thanks!