Celluloid scales and durability...

Hello,

I am considering purchasing a Boker King Cutter with celluloid scales as my first straight razor. There is a disclaimer on The Superior Shave website for every straight razor with celluloid scales:

"AS USUAL, CELLULOID'S NOT VERY DURABLE; to preserve, NEVER open the blade more than ~2/3rds of a circle, & NEVER squeeze on the handle near the pivot-it'll crack if you do either of these things, but give it the respect of NEVER violating those two axioms and you'll be richer and fine."

Should I be overly concerned with this warning? I am new to straight razor shaving and I don't want to destroy the scales of a new razor accidentally. If they are as brittle/fragile as indicated in the aforementioned warning should I be considering a razor with wood scales instead.

Your experience and advice is most welcome.

Thanks,

Rob

Celluloid was the first plastic other than horn. The main complaint is that celluloid can outgas an acid so the razor suffers. The issue of breakage and cracking are a part of the drying out of the plastic.
I have quite a few that have had no problems. and I found a couple that are toast!

All that said, if the razor blade looks good an the scales are reasonable, and the price is right...why not. The blade can always be rescaled later if wanted.
YMMV
~Richard

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Originally Posted by Geezer

Celluloid was the first plastic other than horn. The main complaint is that celluloid can outgas an acid so the razor suffers. The issue of breakage and cracking are a part of the drying out of the plastic.
I have quite a few that have had no problems. and I found a couple that are toast!

All that said, if the razor blade looks good an the scales are reasonable, and the price is right...why not. The blade can always be rescaled later if wanted.
YMMV
~Richard

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Richard,

Thank you for your response.

This would be a brand new Boker King Cutter so I doubt the off-gassing would be much of a concern. My concern is the durability of the scale material. I've no doubt that the blade would be fine but that disclaimer implies that customers have made past complaints about the scales cracking near the pivot and I don't want to have to re-scale the blade prematurely.

Thanks,

Rob

I have never had a celluloid scale crack at the pivot. I've seen that happen more with Ivory or thin wood scales. With Celluloid it's the deterioration that is the issue.

I read that a couple of times now and haven't figured it out yet :shrug:


2/3 of the way open ??? does that even allow for the standard hold ???

Stropping and Honing position is 1/2 or 180° right ???

Walking away confused by these new rules that seem to come out of nowhere ***SMH***

I'll add that the main cause of scales cracking at the pivot is that the pinning is too tight and followed by a buildup of gunge at the pivot.
~Richard

I'm a bit surprised they still use celluloid for scales, I figured they would use something a bit sturdier nowadays.

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Originally Posted by Pithor

I'm a bit surprised they still use celluloid for scales, I figured they would use something a bit sturdier nowadays.

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Yeah, I figured a modern plastic/polymer, mikarta, etc.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I read that a couple of times now and haven't figured it out yet :shrug:


2/3 of the way open ??? does that even allow for the standard hold ???

Stropping and Honing position is 1/2 or 180° right ???

Walking away confused by these new rules that seem to come out of nowhere ***SMH***

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I think they mean 240 degrees but I am not sure.

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Originally Posted by edhewitt

I think they mean 240 degrees but I am not sure.

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See that was what I was thinking but a standard hold is at about 270° hence ***SMH***

Celluloid is still made in sheet and block form today. American Art Plastic supply it in sheet form, there is a definitely a company in Italy that make it for high-end fountain pen manufacturers, and Germany still makes it.

The German stuff is meant to be just like the old stuff - a bit unstable and prone to shrinkage. One guy bought a box of knives from Germany, celluloid handles - he found that the celluloid had shrunk on all of them.

The old stuff was prone to exploding - lots of cutlery factories went up in smoke. One factory had a hinged roof - the idea being that the if an explosion occurred the roof would lift and dissipate the force of the blast and the building would survive. Don't know about the workforce, though...

However, not everything these days that is called celluloid is actually celluloid. In many ways it has become a blanket term, like calling all vacuum cleaners 'Hoovers' so the seller may not know what he is selling - could well be a modern acrylic which, these days, can mimic celluloid very well. I ordered some sheets of so-called celluloid from a knife-making supply company in the US once - it stank of fibreglass resin and was clearly some sort of acrylic. They took it back and refunded me in full, including the big customs fees and all the postage.

Regards,
Neil

Neil Thats interesting about the potential explosions,Have read the same about old movie films kept in locked vaults.
Is celulloid the same as nitro celluloid?

It seems I read of a company (WR Case?) whose celluloid operation was in a building with a hinged roof.
If it blew, they just simply closed the roof again. :rofl2:

I have many old razors with Cell scales. If it is stable, nothing finer, IMO.

I'm honored that so many moderators and others have responded to my question.

I have contacted Boker US and have asked about the scale material and its stability/durability. I'm really trying not to make a big deal about this since this will be my first razor. It's just that the disclaimer that came along with razor's description is interesting to say the least.

I'll let you all know what I find out.

Thanks,

Rob

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Originally Posted by rosborn

I'm honored that so many moderators and others have responded to my question.

I have contacted Boker US and have asked about the scale material and its stability/durability. I'm really trying not to make a big deal about this since this will be my first razor. It's just that the disclaimer that came along with razor's description is interesting to say the least.

I'll let you all know what I find out.

Thanks,

Rob

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It is always great to arm yourself with knowledge. When you find something out....please post it...... :)

TBH, the OP did not disclose whether the King Cutter in question is new-production or vintage.
I think new production would have modern plastic scales. Old one could certainly be scaled with anything?

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

TBH, the OP did not disclose whether the King Cutter in question is new-production or vintage.
I think new production would have modern plastic scales. Old one could certainly be scaled with anything?

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Yes, this is a brand new King Cutter.

I don't think the statement is about the material in question. TSS is warning you not to fold the razor back on itself a lot. This can cause cracking of the scales at the hinge or the scales to become loose. That is what I get from the statement. Many people refer to razor scales as celluloid even though they are just plastic.

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Originally Posted by CrownCork

I don't think the statement is about the material in question. TSS is warning you not to fold the razor back on itself a lot. This can cause cracking of the scales at the hinge or the scales to become loose. That is what I get from the statement. Many people refer to razor scales as celluloid even though they are just plastic.

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Once again with pictures

Different ways to hold a straight razor - Straight Razor Place Library

Please look at the grips used for shaving all but 2 go past the 240° opening stage...

Please explain how you shave without opening the razor "Too" far

So the spine is not resting on the backside of the scales. I have seen people do it and post in their SOTD. My father taught me the same thing and to never hold a razor by it's scales unless it is closed. I am not trying to debate. Just clarify the statement the OP made. The discussion seemed to be wandering into celluloid etc

This thread solves a mystery for me....a short time ago I opened up a Blue Steel celluloid scaled straight, and it blew up in my hand, so this degree discussion has some merit IMHO.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Neil Thats interesting about the potential explosions,Have read the same about old movie films kept in locked vaults.
Is celulloid the same as nitro celluloid?

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Hi Bill,

There are two or three main types of going back to the early days. To make it you needed 100% pure cotton which has been boiled in soda or somesuch to remove the oiliness, wash it, put it in a solution of acids (nitric and sulphuric), thoroughly wash it and dry it. This is known as gun cotton or nitro-cellululose, the nitro referring to nitric acid, the cellulose referring to the cell structure of cotton. To use it has to be made soluble - done by immersing it in diverse solutions such as ethyl alcohol, ether, chloroform, etc. To be honest ether on its own does the job of dissolving the gun cotton into a thick, syrupy solution.

The gun cotton contains two explosive chemicals, the chief one being pyroxilin, and gun cotton was often known by this name. the explosiveness of pyroxilin depends on the volume of nitric acid - hence you find the old books referring to nitrated cotton - today with know it as cellulose nitrate or nitro-cellulose. 13% plus nitrogen content meant it could be used for warheads and blasting in quarries.

The association with film goes way back, from the mid 1840s to its gradual demise in the 1880s. It had a revival though - I was a wetplate photographer for instance - wet plate is a plate of glass that has been covered with an even coat of nitro cellulose (also called salted collodion) then dipped into a bath of silver nitrate (lunar caustic) and taken to the camera and exposed while still wet.

Later on (at the end of the 1880s), Kodak used a lightly nitrated solution with the addition of camphor (plasticiser) to coat film stock. Due to the instability of the film it often spontaneously exploded, causing large fires in the places where film was stored for distribution. It was discontinued in the 1950s. It not only exploded in warehouses, but in crowded cinemas too. The projectionist booth was covered with asbestos sheeting, so sometimes the fire did not escape and kill most of the audience - the projectionist was not so lucky though. Even if he survived to retirement, he probably had asbestosis.

The need to make the filmstock safer called for an acetate base, using cellulose acetate. This was, ironically, called 'Safety Film'. It was less susceptible to exloding, but the acetate cause the plastic to become brittle and shrink. Acetic acid (vinegar - corrosive in high concentrations) outgases and leaves a vinegar smell - this was known in the motion picture industry as 'vinegar' syndrome. In extreme cases the vinegar can be deposited as crystals or drops of liquid on the surface, and as degradation proceeds the salts and plasticisers lay on the surface as powdery deposits, so there is an odour of camphor, too - in the razor world we call this cell-rot.

Nitro celluloid is still around - you can find it in varnishes and lacquers - the 'dope' they use to stiffen the fabric on wooden framed aircraft is a form of nitro-cellulose.

Regards,
Neil

All very interesting,Than you.
As a side note,I have alot of 16mm canisters of family films from the 40s and 50s,Is it dangerous??

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

All very interesting,Than you.
As a side note,I have alot of 16mm canisters of family films from the 40s and 50s,Is it dangerous??

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Is it colour or black and white Bill, or a mix of both? Is it the old 16mm (or 8mm) film stock or the 22mm/35mm movie stock? Any names on eg, Kodachrome, Technicolor, Kodak Safety Film, Cine-Kodak, Eastman?

Basically the nitrate based film was replaced with the acetate film in 1948, conversion taking around 4 years - 1952. Usually, storing in bulk of 5000 foot rolls is the most risky, and hot, humid confined spaces cause degradation of the nitrate based films. Basically the 'plastic' base of the film is nitro-cellulose, coated with gelatin, wich in turn is coated with light sensitive silver salts.

Kodak never produced a nitrate film of 16mm or less, so that's one thing to be happy about. 16mm film was only made using safety film. If you keep the temperature lower than 20C and the humidity to between 20 - 40% you have a margin of 10 - 150 years before anything goes wrong.

Here is a table of film bases that might help (as usual there are small discrepancies, but that's life!):

Attachment 202950

Cellulose triacetate film base arrived in 1948, but it only took a decade for the 'vinegar syndrome' effect to appear. Improved safety film used cellulose diacetate.

You can check for decompositon by looking at the inside of metal cannisters - any rust is not a good sign, and by sniffing inside the cannister - if your nose is irritated and you get an acidic, harsh smell - not good at all - that is the nitric acid outgassing. You should not tape old metal cannisters like they used to - this encourages rapid deterioration if the temperature is high and the relative humidity is high.

If the film base is yellowed, cracked and shrunk - not good. The gelatin will not shrink, so the film buckles up on itself, gets 'sticky' and breaks into pieces.

The first safety film that replaced nitrate based film stock was not as explosive but still broke down, giving of the vinegar smell that gave rise to the name 'vinegar syndrome". This was followed by an Improved Safety Film.

Basically, all you really have to look out for in the case of amateur 16mm or 8mm film stock is the vinegar syndrome, which rules out spontaneous ignition and explosions (usually!).

Regards,
Neil

Neil Miller knows too much for one man....he is starting to scare me.

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Originally Posted by Willisf

It is always great to arm yourself with knowledge. When you find something out....please post it...... :)

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Here is Boker's response:

"Thank you for your inquiry! This (Boker King Cutter 5/8") has a plastic handle, which is extremely durable, water resistant, etc. We have been using this material for many, many, many years. Let me know if you have any additional questions. Thanks!"

"Mystery" solved...

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

It seems I read of a company (WR Case?) whose celluloid operation was in a building with a hinged roof.
If it blew, they just simply closed the roof again. :rofl2:

I have many old razors with Cell scales. If it is stable, nothing finer, IMO.

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Damn man, now that's just showing off...

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Originally Posted by WW243

Neil Miller knows too much for one man....he is starting to scare me.

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Therein lies the oft-misunderstood truth. Neil is many men, rolled into one. The Neil Chart as current;

Attachment 202968

(Forgive me, Neil!)

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Originally Posted by ChopperDave

Damn man, now that's just showing off...

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Ha! Perhaps, Dave. All archived photos. Lots are afraid of old celluloid, but the things they molded them into would be lost if everyone just ripped them off because they are Cell and for no other good reason!
I mean Gee........:D

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Originally Posted by CrownCork

So the spine is not resting on the backside of the scales. I have seen people do it and post in their SOTD. My father taught me the same thing and to never hold a razor by it's scales unless it is closed. I am not trying to debate. Just clarify the statement the OP made. The discussion seemed to be wandering into celluloid etc

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We are wandering into celluloid, it's properties, strengths and weaknesses as the OP's post clearly included this quote;
"AS USUAL, CELLULOID'S NOT VERY DURABLE; to preserve, NEVER open the blade more than ~2/3rds of a circle, & NEVER squeeze on the handle near the pivot-it'll crack if you do either of these things, but give it the respect of NEVER violating those two axioms and you'll be richer and fine."
This seemingly notes the seller's issues with celluloid, and it's integrity. A discussion on celluloid could ensue, naturally.
Moving razor blades through an entire range of degrees is another discussion entirely, IMO.
They could be scaled with anything.
This is about Celluloid, I think? If you pay attention, much has been shared, learned.

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Originally Posted by CrownCork

So the spine is not resting on the backside of the scales. I have seen people do it and post in their SOTD. My father taught me the same thing and to never hold a razor by it's scales unless it is closed. I am not trying to debate. Just clarify the statement the OP made. The discussion seemed to be wandering into celluloid etc

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But that is exactly what my, the OP, question was about...celluloid scales. It seemed to me that the warning from The Superior Shave (TSS) was almost a deterrent to people from purchasing straight razors with celluloid scales. Seeking further clarification I asked him -

"Thank you for the clarification. I admit that my concern was raised because it almost seemed like the razor description was meant to deter people from purchasing the King Cutter because the celluloid scales would break. Again, thank you for the clarification."

To which TSS replied -

"king cutter doesn't use bad celluloid, but in the grander scheme of things all celluloid is far too flexible and brittle alike micarta, on the other hand, is extremely durable stuff (it is more or less identical to the fuselage underlining of WWII bombers)"

Seeking further clarification, I asked Boker USA -

"I am interested in purchasing the Boker straight razor #140521 (King Cutter). I have read that the scales are made of celluloid (a historic and early plastic material). I have also read that celluloid can be unstable and can deteriorate more quickly than other polymer materials. Please tell me what the scales of the Boker straight razor #140521 (King Cutter) are made of and if the material is durable and stable long-term."

To which Boker USA replied -

"Thank you for your inquiry! This has a plastic handle, which is extremely durable, water resistant, etc. We have been using this material for many, many, many years. Let me know if you have any additional questions. Thanks!"

So, Boker USA indicated that the scales of the King Cutter are indeed plastic - extremely durable and water resistant at that. So, I am perplexed why TSS felt the need to issue the warning about the scales when Boker stated that the scales are extremely durable and water resistant. I can understand caution but the extreme nature of the warning? It seemed a little over the top.

Regardless, even before I received Boker's response, I decided to take a chance on the Boker King Cutter because I like TSS and I came to the conclusion that if the scales were garbage, the blade would be good, and I could always have the scales replaced. I have no doubt that it is a fine razor and I am looking forward to receiving it and the Ralf Aust, with bridle leather strop, I purchased from Straight Razor Designs.

In short, all of my questions have been satisfactorily answered.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Neil Thats interesting about the potential explosions,Have read the same about old movie films kept in locked vaults.
Is celulloid the same as nitro celluloid?

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Funny, I just Googled it the other day & this is what it says:

a transparent flammable plastic made in sheets from camphor and nitrocellulose, formerly used for cinematographic film.

celluloid, the first synthetic plastic material, developed in the 1860s and 1870s from a homogeneous colloidal dispersion of nitrocellulose and camphor.

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Originally Posted by engine46

Funny, I just Googled it the other day & this is what it says:

a transparent flammable plastic made in sheets from camphor and nitrocellulose, formerly used for cinematographic film.

celluloid, the first synthetic plastic material, developed in the 1860s and 1870s from a homogeneous colloidal dispersion of nitrocellulose and camphor.

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Hope I am not putting Crowncork's nose out of joint with more about celluloid, but here goes...!

The potted history above is not entirely correct. The concept of celluloid was first muted in 1848. The first marketable formula was celluloid, available in 1855, but because it's British inventor was called Alexander Parkes it was marketed under the name 'Parkesine", and later as 'Xylonite' which found its way into the workrooms of many Sheffield straight razor workshops as a scale material. There is in London a placque recalling the deaths of loads of workers in one company dying when the xylonite store caught fire and exploded. In 1921 there was a fire in a Sheffield cutlery company, again due to xylonite:

Attachment 203004

I have seen the stuff in inventories for Sheffield cutlery works as late as 1931, though it probably was used up to the 1950s, perhaps longer.

Parkes invention was described as letting collodion evaporate into a solid mass - he also used camphor. It was still called Parkesine in the early 1860s. He and an inventor named Spill called the mixture 'Xylonite' when they added camphor to it.

Parkes went belly-up in the water and American John Hyatt (a blacksmith's son, incidentally) bought his patent in the 1860s. Hyatt formed a billiard ball manufacturing company in the 1870s - the origin of the 'exploding billiard balls' fracas. Hyatt also formed the 'Celluloid Manufacturing Co. and by 1872 the trade name 'celluloid' was firmly entrenched.

Ping-pong balls are still made from celluloid today, in the past they made celluloid cuffs and collars (the sheet material could be cut and then formed into shape with the aid of heat), here are some other objects:

Attachment 203005

Meanwhile back in england an associate (inventor and rubber manufacturer) of Parkes - Daniel Spill - had started the 'Xylonite Co.' - there was a legal dispute with Hyatt, but as Parkes was the inventor judgement meant that neither Spill nor Hyatt won the case - celluloid and xylonite were still 'owned' as material by Hyatt and Spill.

Hyatt set up a new premises in New Jersey in 1872 to produce celluloid. It did not cease production until 1949.

So - the start date of 1860 - 1870 quoted by many articles is incorrect.

Regards,
Neil

Wow! So much info provided by the oracles on here. I was just simply gonna say that if the razor is new and the scales are celluloid, I wouldn't worry about it. With the proper care and correct, relatively gentle use of the razor, it'll outlive you! However, since the scales have been confirmed as plastic, I won't say it!!

Enjoy your King Cutter rosborn.

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Originally Posted by wayne394

Enjoy your King Cutter rosborn.

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Thank you! I intend to!

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Originally Posted by rosborn

Thank you! I intend to!

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And don't forget, once it arrives, post a photo in (and so join) The Boker Brotherhood!

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Hope I am not putting Crowncork's nose out of joint with more about celluloid, but here goes...!

The potted history above is not entirely correct. The concept of celluloid was first muted in 1848. The first marketable formula was celluloid, available in 1855, but because it's British inventor was called Alexander Parkes it was marketed under the name 'Parkesine", and later as 'Xylonite' which found its way into the workrooms of many Sheffield straight razor workshops as a scale material. There is in London a placque recalling the deaths of loads of workers in one company dying when the xylonite store caught fire and exploded. In 1921 there was a fire in a Sheffield cutlery company, again due to xylonite:

Attachment 203004

I have seen the stuff in inventories for Sheffield cutlery works as late as 1931, though it probably was used up to the 1950s, perhaps longer.

Parkes invention was described as letting collodion evaporate into a solid mass - he also used camphor. It was still called Parkesine in the early 1860s. He and an inventor named Spill called the mixture 'Xylonite' when they added camphor to it.

Parkes went belly-up in the water and American John Hyatt (a blacksmith's son, incidentally) bought his patent in the 1860s. Hyatt formed a billiard ball manufacturing company in the 1870s - the origin of the 'exploding billiard balls' fracas. Hyatt also formed the 'Celluloid Manufacturing Co. and by 1872 the trade name 'celluloid' was firmly entrenched.

Ping-pong balls are still made from celluloid today, in the past they made celluloid cuffs and collars (the sheet material could be cut and then formed into shape with the aid of heat), here are some other objects:

Attachment 203005

Meanwhile back in england an associate (inventor and rubber manufacturer) of Parkes - Daniel Spill - had started the 'Xylonite Co.' - there was a legal dispute with Hyatt, but as Parkes was the inventor judgement meant that neither Spill nor Hyatt won the case - celluloid and xylonite were still 'owned' as material by Hyatt and Spill.

Hyatt set up a new premises in New Jersey in 1872 to produce celluloid. It did not cease production until 1949.

So - the start date of 1860 - 1870 quoted by many articles is incorrect.

Regards,
Neil

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Thank you very much Neil. That is just what I pulled up from the internet & we all know we can't believe everything we see on there, even if it is Google.